Milano "Pro 75" Spec Series!

[Grant]

Sly,

What suspension are you running?


Im in San Jose, we should meet up some time..
I want to see your VEMS...but not in that way..

[Echo Leader]

In response to Richard Jemison, I think the level to which your preparing your GT2 car is far and away more aggressive then what would be required for a "Spec" series. I'm not too well versed in the E30 costs, aside from what Carter said about him being a front running with only $6500 invested in his car, but according to some of the guys preparing for NASA's Spec Focus the cost has been around $10,000.

So we could probably trim out some of that stuff, as delicious as they all sound... But I think your warning is that costs can quickly spiral out of control. This was part of the reason I was pushing to go as budget oriented as possible, especially when there are solid alternatives that simply cost less I think I'm being outvoted on the RSR issue though. Not that we're actually moving forward at this point.

Slightly unrelated sidebar: Richard, do you offer the drop spindles for sale? The more I read, the more interested I am in addressing the front roll center geometry issues with this type modification. Thanks!

[Echo Leader]

What does everyone think regarding tire choice?

Do most Spec series run a street tire?

[junglejustice]

Some here get it and some don't - Richard clearly didn't read again... You're operating under the premise that nobody here has raced before, or have even been to a track before!

Many folks already have light-weight 15" wheels and R-compound tires for their track-days, jacks/jack-stands/tarps/torque-wrenches and other tools in their "track-bins"... We ALL have parts/parts-cars/parts resources!

Many of us have race suits, gloves, helmets etc (the track-days require it) - even 5-points and driving shoes. For many of us, these are family activities (the wives and kids come along), so this wouldn't be THAT much of a stretch! Some even have tow-vehicles and trailers!

Besides, we are NOT talking about an Alfa versus the world effort here! The idea here is a low-budget SPEC series; FUN and with the emphasis on DRIVER SKILL.

Any modifications, or after-market "performance additions" permitted must be allowed FOR THE ENTIRE FIELD and will be for the SOLE purpose of;

a) Safety - stock brakes for example have a tendency to go away a bit after a 20 minute session - the car needs to be safe. If the driver can't afford the basics like a decent roll-cage like what Group 2 produces (or what Richard mentioned), for around 3 grand, he/she has no business participating. You need a fire system etc.

b) Budget/reliability - vented rear brakes will save money in the long-run for example!

c) To add a bit of a fun-factor to the experience. Anti-roll-bars with commensurate suspension modifications to bring the car to neutral - lower it a bit etc. Also, most of us (as with all weekend/club racers) like to fiddle with our cars - allowing some modifications will encourage participation!

[junglejustice]

Thanks you for all of the participation so far!

So, yeah - sure, you could keep the budget LOW-LOW-LOW and spec an all street-street set of rules, but where's the fun going to be in scraping door-handles around the turns...? Anybody who "goes racing" will at least want a car that looks and acts the part, so you HAVE to sanction SOME performance specifications to allow for it - along with the safety basics!

Jes already did EXACTLY this with Roxanne - less than 10 grand? Wasn't that what you said Jes...?

Also, we could think about GROWING the rules as budgets allow - a good way for MORE folks to participate SOONER. You keep the rules VERY basic and VERY stock for now, that way anything added to the rules later does not replace a previously purchased part! The nice thing about a grassroots effort such as this is that the sanctioning body is likely to participate themselves with a base effort (most of us have tight budgets and the guys setting the rules are likely to want to leg-in to this as well) and everybody gets to "develop" their cars...

For example; When you add say, vented rear discs later, there is NO money lost due to replacement of a previously purchased performance part. Later, when you add headers to the rules for everybody, you are simply removing a stock part that was on there before any way - so, you do this in stages!

[junglejustice]

Here's MY budget for something like this to start with;

Donour car (some of us already have one), but just in the event that you don't own the obligatory 2-3 Milanos like the rest of us - 500 to 1,500 dollars.
Cage/welding/rust-repair - largest single expense; some guys can weld and have welders/friends with welders - the materials run about 400-500-600 bucks. Having a shop do it turn-key (nice- with belt tabs on the harness bar, NASCAR-style door side-beams, fuel-cell frame, painted), mounting the seats etc etc - 3-4 grand.
Assume the engine is already running - just belts, t-stat, tensioner, oil, water pump, oil etc - add a grand.
Spare motors are readily available for 100 to 500 bucks - no need for the Richard J. $$$ rebuild OR for one of "my" Glenwood engines. Cams and other engine mods not allowed - at least not for now.
Steering wheel, seat, harness belts, fire system, installation etc - another two grand.
GTV6 wheels - very light - anything from free to maybe 100 bucks. A set of TD Pro Race 1 15" wheels weigh - what" 14 pounds - 130 dollars a piece BRAND NEW!
R-compounds - even Hoosiers were being cleared out the other day at 92 bucks a tire - 3-400 bucks - 600 max will last you a year at least!
Gearbox/syncros - learn to heel-and-toe/dubble-shift until you can afford the rebuild. Replacement used boxes lay around for 100 bucks each!
Fuel cell, lines, pumps, filters etc - 1,000 bucks.

I count about 8,500 bucks to start with. The car can be DRIVEN to the track on stock wheels and tires!

The small items such as engine-mounts, gearbox mounts, pads etc - those are small individual items easily absorbed in the average household budget over time... They become maintenance items to do as you go along - you don't need to do a ground-up restoration from day one!

Initially - want to increase the fun factor a bit? - Shankle suspensions are a dime a dozen and many folks already have them however, what you do IMNSHO is - you grow the rules over time - as budgets grow (allowing only the stock suspensions with say any after-market shocks for now.) Folks in need of replacement shocks can stick with stock/Konis/Bilsteins or, opt for Ron's shocks as a prelude to things to come...)

Then, you modify the rules as you go along to allow for ADDITIONS of parts as budgets allow! Later you add adjustable rear springs to the rules - everybody buys them - no money lost from going from one setup to the next. (Cheap fun, useful mod!) The car can now be lowered and balanced to a large degree - along with lowering the torsion bars!

Later, you add the uniball watts-links to the rules - everybody gets to add it - no money lost on removing anything purchased before, then maybe you add say, the 30mm RSR front bars to the rules - again - no money lost per se from removing the stock anti-roll bars.

And later yet again, you add the RSR front coil-overs to the rules - EVERYBODY ADDS THESE TO THEIR CARS - NO MONEY LOST FROM NOW REMOVING THINGS THAT WERE PURCHASED BEFORE. Torsion bars remain the same throughout the process - the RSRacing coil-overs were designed to work WITH the STOCK torsion bars.

Yep - growing the rules would be the way to do it (if you asked me.)

Nobody has asked the obvious question yet: Who's in...!?

[81gtv6]

Seems like everyone has a different number in their head as far as 'low budget' goes.

[junglejustice]

Well, its all relative - you know? Richard's 50K GT2 effort, the 3.7 - full race car - perhaps in the 70-80K range at full retial, a good vintage effort at 25-45K - yeah - 8-10K is a LOW budget to race ANYTHING!

Hell, go-carts run 10K to get going!

[75evo]

What about standardized tires? Falken Azenis RT-615 in 205/50/15 size for everyone. Remember that at one point I think the Grand Am series were running on shaved Toyo Proxes T1-Rs (road tires).

[Hit an Apex]

The World-Challenge Speed GT and Speed TC series run on DOT Toyo tires that are shaved. Ask me, I work for one of the teams . They seem to do just fine on those.

[75evo]

They run RA-1s now, but a few years ago they ran on T1-Rs for just one season.

Edit:

The tire was the T1-S not T1-R, and I believe it was back in 2005.

"During its association with Toyo Tires®, the SPEED World Challenge® competed on both the Proxes T1-S™ premium ultra-high performance tire for the street and eventually the Proxes RA1™ D.O.T.-legal competition radial."

[Echo Leader]

Wow, JJ. That was some brain dump. I'd need a nap after posts like those.


75evo, I've heard that the RT-615 is a great Autocross tire, but that it overheats quickly (half the Autocrossers that run them need to wet them down after runs to cool them back off) and it then becomes a bit 'greasy'. I like the idea of going with a street tire though....maybe the Toyos or the Ecsta MX? Standard size would be a must.

And in response to the "Who's in?": I would LOVE to participate is something like this and would be giving it serious thought! Just a couple things though:

1. I would prefer to use a GTV6 if possible. I don't think it would be inherently much different then running a Milano, and I like the looks/feel/simplicity. Hope the thought doesn't kill the 'Spec' mojo too much. If needed, I'll carry some "I'm-a-big-jerk-and-didn't-build-a-Milano" balast

2. I'd be building my car slowly, so as long as nobody minds me working my way towards full Spec at a snail's pace (and my resulting snail's pace on track ).

Any other East Coast folks seriously considering it?

[Grant]

Maybe to get people invovled, we could start off with stock suspension (aftermarket shocks too) with just some fat sway bars. They aren't too hard to install, and will keep the cars from tipping over on the track

The Azenis RT-615 is supposed to overheat, but 75evo has them on his Milano and didn't think they got greasy.

I think the key is to get as wide of a tire on the car to handle a portly Milano.

I would like to see GTV6's in the races, but with more handicap...we could figure out what that would be later in.

And to answer JJ's question, I'm definitely not in at this point, but I'd love to see the Spec Milano series take off so I can join later on.

[slyalfa]

Grant it is stock as far as I know other then some poly here and there.
and I have a spider ball on my left side caster rod. The rubber seemed to only last a week or so on that side. and I never got around to changing the right side. but I did put poly on the right.
on the street it seems most of the hard turns are right. I also seem to wear out my left tires a lot faster.

Some sort of get togeter would be fun. I work in Menlo Park. any one else?

I guess if rules it too tight it would make you have to have a car just for this. if the avarage mods that one does to the normal car is more then the rules.
and some stock parts are very pricey and would not hold up to racing where some aftermarkit stuff is cheap and will hold up. But that can all be worked out. I think the real problem it getting the critical mass. If you could get all the alfa guys all over the world in one place. There might be the numbers you need. but getting the numbers in say the east cost. or the numbers in say the west cost etc. would seem very hard to do.
when it comes down to it even with every thing you can do to keep costs down. the cost is still there. it is in reach but even 10k is a lot of cash. now the BMW guys ½ will spend 10K on some silly big rims. They seem to have a lot more cash on hand then the avarage alfa guy. At lest that is what I have seen. I love the idea but getting the numbers to make it happen seem very hard to do.
some one might have to collect a buch of cars and have them ready to make the numbers then rent them or somthing.

[Carter]

A few thoughts after reading your interesting posts...

We left the cage and safety regs to NASA. Let them deal with the liability.

"It's not about the cars" doesn't mean that the cars aren't important. It means that the car prep mods aren't super important. Racing a car with which you have some passion is great but spec series racing isn't for "tinkerers."

Can you own an Italian car and not be a natural tinkerer? J/K!!

Seriously, I raced in SCCA's Improved Touring and the rules creep killed it. The Tinkerers got their way and ITC cars went from $7,000.00 (in 1997) to $20,000 in just a few years. Our Rules stability will prevent that from happening. Spec racing isn't where great engineers can show their skills.

We also left the ABS to prevent flat spotted (ruined) tires. A couple of old-school guys disabled their ABS but have now hooked it back up. And we chose the Toyo RA-1 not because it is the quickest tire but because it is a good compromise of speed and durability. We have also found that it stays quick until the cords are showing. In last year's National Championship at Mid Ohio, I ran my quickest laps of the weekend on the first day (p1 of 8 cars), and right before I corded the left front - it had two race weekends on it.

I know that NASA is about full, regarding new racing series but with the rich tradition and history of Alfas, a vintage group might consider sanctioning a spec Alfa program.

It doesn't hurt to ask.

Carter