Milano "Pro 75" Spec Series!

[super-racer]

IMO Carter has provided some great insight. If you can get 15-20 completely stock milanos out there with exception to some safer tires, you can see a train of 20 cars nose to tail race around within seconds of each other. Going to the RSR suspension is just going to run up costs and start temptaions of making more mods. I've driven bone stock cars on the track and it is actually really fun. You learn how to drive better since you are trying to scrub off as little speed as possible. It's not nearly as fun as driving my full built super but we have to remeber that the 75 pro series is suppose to be a low budget deal that allows more people to get out on the track.

[AR4me]

I suppose Gold and Silver editions are "equal". The Platinum has LSD and ABS. The ABS functionality is easily disabled by disconnecting a wheel speed sensor, but LSD obviously isn't. The least expensive would be to allow Gold and Silver editions (disallowing LSD). Everything stock except for:
1. Safer tire
2. I would suggest having no limits for weight saving, except it cannot require new parts for the car, i.e. you can take things off but not replace with lighter components (ruling out Lexan, body panels, etc.).
3. Allow poly bushings since any 20-year old Milano that is headed for the race track is probably in need of bushings and poly will last longer than stock rubber bushings (= less maintenance).

Can you still get OEM shocks? This could be an issue since perhaps some of the 20-year old shocks are tired... I dunno, but I kind of like the idea of allowing the 4 shocks+springs as well as the 30 mm front sway bar of the RSR suspension. This will also make the cars look like race cars

Jes

[81gtv6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant I think coilovers are the best mainstream option. All of the performatek goodies still leave the chassis a bit wanting IMO.

[DaveH]

I agree: options like allowing the RSR kit in could kill this off. Poly, for practicality reasons is fine. ABS and power steering delete could be allowed. Sway bars? Dunno: I could be swayed either way on that one

You would need a (high) min weight limit. Like SpecE30 has.

Lift as much of the SpecE30 rule book as possible.

Didn't someone mention 'it's NOT about the cars'?

Did y'all know that in Ireland they used to race a 24h Citroen 2CV competition. It was spec. They leaned. Big time. And the racing was close. Cheap too.

[italcarguy]

My thoughts:

Engine: Stock 2.5 liter V6 only. Have selected shops in selected areas build/check motors and “seal” them before being allowed to race. Bigger radiator and oil coolers can be added. Air intake can be modified.

Gearbox/Rear End: Original rear end to the car must be used. You can lock or replace with a LSD. All cars must run same final drive ratio.

Brakes: drilled/slotted rotors allowed, rear discs may be changed to vented, r compound pads allowed, calipers must me OEM, braided lines allowed. Front fog lights can be turned into brake ducts. Brake bias valve can be added.

Exhaust: Find a spec affordable tubular header or just leave the stock manifolds. Like someone said earlier in the thread, maybe find a place that can be the sole manufacture Anything after that is open to the owner’s choice of exhaust.

Shocks: Koni “classic” or “sport”

Other Suspension: List a specific torsion bars, springs, and sway bars that can be used. Nothing that needs to be modified to be installed would be allowed, just straight bolt in. Poly bushings/spherical bearings ok where applicable.

Tires/Wheels: Figure out a spec tire and allow different size wheels as long as the overall diameter and width is the same.

Safety: Roll cage, fuel cell, fire system, and power switch are mandatory. Maybe work with Autopower on making them the “spec” cage so all cars are equally stiffened. It wouldn’t be fair is someone had a $5K custom cages opposed to someone’s $1000 bolt in Autopower.

Body: Cannot be modified from stock except Verde rear lip kits added (cuz they look cool). All the panels must remain original. Weight can be removed from anywhere in the car.

Misc: Interior may be stripped, front windshield must remain glass while all others can be changed to plastic. Battery and fuel cell can strategically be placed anywhere in the car.

It is important to stick to and enforce the rules while making it “affordable” for everyone. With that said I might be interested. I have a 2.5 Milano sitting in storage.

I guess the next big thing would be to choose what groups to run with. For the west coast, I think AROSC events should be definately considered as one of the options.

[AR4me]

I like Anthony's layout if we take the route away from basically stock. It should allow RSR - which is simply about changing the spring rates front and rear, shocks front and rear, and the front sway bar - these few changes make a tremendous difference in the car, PLEASE... The "car" Anthony laid out will cost you a fair amount if build buy a shop, but you can do it "affordably" yourself (of course, everything is relative. Though, don't expect to go racing like that for $3k).
Jes

[Potenziato]

The cost for the BMW e30 Nasa Spec suspension is about $1300 retail. It consists of Bilsteins, H & R race springs, and swaybars. I checked out places that'll sell you a package. http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html...T_ID=SPECE30SK

Hmmm, I would think a series running 15" wheels, 2.5 milanos with stock engines, no ABS, and a kit like the RS with just the coilovers and a front swaybar would be pretty fun. That would only be $2k usd for the suspension which isn't to bad compared to the NASA e30 suspension. Oh yeah, stock brakes with only pads allowed. The idea here is cheap and similar cars for everybody.

Here is a link to the e30 rulebook: http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/SpecE30.pdf

It would be fun to race Spec Milanos, but what's the point when they already have the Spec E30 and Spec 944. I think we would have a hard time gathering all the loonies together in one place for this to ever work.

[Grant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 81gtv6 Once again, your missing the point. Its NOT about the cars. Its not about the cars. For SCCA class whatever its about the cars, for Spec Alfa its not about the cars. SpecE30 works because it (1)gives the cars just enough suspension mods to be fun to drive,(2) easy to prep a car for, (3)hard to cheat, and (4)cheap to build. Its going to be really really hard to get Spec Alfa going if it isn't cheap and easy I think there is a handful of RSR kits in the US, there are TONS of aftermarket swaybars,torsion bars, and springs on cars here making it easier to prep the car(2). The RSR kit, as you say, is adjustable thus taking the Spec out of it or making it easier to cheat. You can look at a torsion bar, sway bar or springs and know those aren't legal, making it hard to cheat (3). James hit it on the nose, RSR isnt cheaper(4)

[Grant]

I think the most pressing issue is, where are these cars going to run?

[AR4me]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant I think the most pressing issue is, where are these cars going to run?

[75evo]

E30 more fun to drive? What??!!! Grant, talk to da hand!

My sister had an E30 325i when she was here. IMO stock E30 325i suck as much as a stock Milano. Actually I preferred the Milano.

Personally not interested in Spec Milano, but this discussion is getting interesting.

Popcorn anyone?

[Grant]

Erm...I should say "handles better". I meant fun to drive on the track. Around town -- No contest! The cars themselves are actually pretty bland and boring IMO. The I6 is pretty smooth though.

And my opinion of good handling is a predictable car at the limit that is willing to turn-in, and rotate the rear. The Milano is very safe and predictable, I like what it does on lift throttle situations, but turn in it does not (more Yoda). Stock E30's are actually a little dicey at the limit, as soon as you lift up on the throttle, the semi-trailing arm rear suspension gets crazy toe and camber changes, and OUT goes the tail. But, once stiff spring are on an E30, much less camber and toe change happens out back and they become VERY nice.

This is all IMO IMO IMO! Yaddadadamean?
XFT, for one, says the Milanos are the best handling cars in the WORLD!

[Zarcon]

It seems to me that the RSR kit is a major point that is demanded by the members who seem somewhat likely to actually field cars. Fair enough, maybe it is worth it. I have never been in an RSR equiped Milano, maybe that is why I think that stock is good enough. I do think that a stock milano is a very fun car to drive. At least my stock Verde is.

I think that other areas should be kept as simple as possible. The cars should all have the same diff and final drive ratio. Since Platinum boxes are rare as can be, they would seem to me to be out. If open diffs on 155 hp cars are not fun enough to make them worth driving, then allow a welded diff.

SZ rear brake conversion is expensive: $175x2 for the disks, $155 for the spacer kit, and I dont know how much for a set of rebuilt calipers. It might not be a good idea to allow this conversion since it would drive up the price of the car. Then again, it wouldnt be very fun if the brakes were not reliable and people had to bleed their brakes all the time. Spec Milano would be lighter than stock, due to AC, PS, heater core, carpet, headliner, and sound deadening deletes. That might help a little with the rear brakes, but I dont have enough experience running my car to make this call. Maybe wrapping the exhaust near the transaxle and running cooling ducts, along with high performance pads and fluid, might make stock rear brakes bearable.

Exhaust- Stock manifolds for sure. I think stock manifolds are fairly well matched for a stock 2.5, so there are not massive gains to be had from this change anyway. Behind the manifolds, I am not sure. Requiring stock appeals to me because it should be the cheapest. I dont think that changing mufflers gives anyone an advantage, however. Maybe just require stock pipe dimensions?

Polycarbonate windows? Not worth it in my opinion. This mod would just serve to make all cars more expensive and just the same ammount faster.

Body modification shouldnt be permitted either. Even with a minimum weight requirement. A car with Evo bumpers and a fiberglass hood and trunk lid could be brought back to minimum weight with some balast added on the floor behind the driver. It would be a faster car, however, due to the weight being lower and more centered. It would also be a much more expensive car.