Milano "Pro 75" Spec Series!

[Grant]

I only know of two easily obtainable suspension systems for Milanos:

The bits Performatek supplies (sway bars, shocks, springs and T-bars) and RSR coilovers. Which one do we choose??

Thanks for the info Steve. I think the problem would be finding enough Milano enthusiasts to fork over enough money for a spec series (as in completely building a car to the rule book). Atleast with a point system, someone with an already modified car could more easily enter the arena without having to de-mod whatever he/she has done.

If a spec series was made, it should probably be done with the cheapest and most available parts: no ABS, no LSD, stock engines and EFI, RSR coilovers (pretty good value), and a simple bolt-in cage which OMP and Autopower sell for bout $800. The cheaper you can make the series the better. If the series proves successful, THEN you can open up the rule book a bit and allow more expensive parts such as GoTech and headers and LSD's and others. If it's too much money in the beginning, it might kill whatever chances there were for the series to take off.

Platinum trannies are too rare and expensive, I don't think we can even utilize the LSD's that Alfas came with!

[jack_linguini]

I've been interested in the spec e30 series for some time now.

To address JJs question about policing cams and ECUs. In the NASA
spec E30 series they just run the motor to the rev limiter.
As long as it doesn't go past ~6500. it aint got no chip.

The weight hp and tq ratings are very similar.

I think a good way to go would be to petition NASA to allow Milanos
in some sort of exhibition format w the BMWs initially. this would
allow to see what sort of balancing needs to happen.

I was at a NASA event early spring and they seem very flexible.

If anyone has a Milano that is already built to specs very close to
the E30s I would think that the racers would be happy to fill up the grid.

bests

JimL

[Carter]

'Evening Gentlemen. I'm one of the two Spec E30 founders and have 14 years of club racing experience.

David asked me to chime in and I'm happy to contribute to the discussion. I can't answer too many questions due to family (3 small children) and business (growing), and Spec E30 goings-on as well but I'll check back.

I'll be brief...kind-of

1. Forget lexan, coilovers, chips, big brakes, alternate parts, "opening up the rules", cams, headers, etc. Our philosophy at Spec E30 is low cost, close racing, and stable rules. While we have tweaked the rules just slightly, our drivers love the fact that they will never have to buy "this year's go-fast (expensive) part."

2. Spec Racing requires a completely new thought process, regarding the car. If everyone has the stock glass, why spend the time and money buying, measuring, cutting, and installing lexan? If all the cars are turning 2:20:00 at VIR and the rules allow some new part, all the cars will be running 2:18:00. What has been accomplished? Nothing regarding the actual racing...but the drivers had to spend money, that's for sure. 'See where I'm going? If all cars have the same simple bolt-in springs and dampers, how do coilovers improve the actual racing? They don't and that's why we chose a simple H&R spring and the stock Bilstein Sport dampers. Our catch-phrase - If the rules don't specifically allow it, it must stay as it came from the factory. I constantly get the same questions..."Can I remove the wipers?" "Do you see anything about wipers in the Spec E30 Rules?" "No" "Then leave them as they came from the factory." It's really that simple.

3. The cars must be checked regularly. If no one is willing to invest the time, and some money, to check different items on the cars, cheaters will know that your series is good for them. At every race weekend, we pull a rear shock (pull a name from the hat) and give the driver our "control" shock to race with that weekend. His is sent to Bilstein to be checked. Revalving them is a common cheater's trick and we'll know if someone is cheating. And the penalties for performance enhancing mods are very severe. We also check diff lockup breaking points. Put the car in neutral, lift one side, put a torque wrench on the hub nut and keep raising the torque setting until the diff breaks-away. This takes all of about 3 minutes and discourages building a higher lockup diff. The Rules require a stock 25% lockup. We also have arranged a few stock ECU's to get handed out at the races. If someone's lap times increase by 2 seconds after the swap, we look very closely at their ECU. We'll also swap ECU's on the chassis dyno at the track. This takes about 60 seconds and if the numbers change...

4. The series cannot be a democracy or be ruled by committee. You have to have one or two (we have two) Series Administrators and we make all the decisions in Spec E30. Period. And I'm a middle child so this is really against my nature. But early on, we realized that it has to be done this way and NASCAR was the inspiration. They make the Rules and that is that. Based on the fact that we had 27 Spec E30 cars at the Feb. VIR race tells us that we're doing it correctly. We listen to suggestions but tell everyone that Spec E30 is not perfect, we cannot and will not try to please everyone, and that there are plenty of other places to race if someone doesn't like Spec E30or how we run it. Honestly, some ideas from the group have been adopted but we can't get bogged-down in this committee or that committee. Decisions have to be made.

5. The cars must be built for your series. Several people wanted us to open up Spec E30 it ITS cars, etc, in an attempt to raise the car counts quickly. We resisted the temptation and boy are we glad! All the cars are close and cheap (I'm a front runner and have about $6,500.00 in my car) and reliable.

6. Every car should be the same basic model. We allow the 318is (twin cam 1.8L) cars but will probably require the 2.5 six in all cars at some point. If we don't, the 318 guys will complain if they are losing. And the 325i guys will complain if they are losing. Having the same equipment will eliminate a lot of problems.

7. Keep it simple. We have stock engines (a .020 overbore/standard rebuild is allowed) including the stock exhaust manifold. Some guys wanted a $600.00 header but now that we have the best racing of the weekend, manifolds/headers have never come up. The guys are too busy talking about the close and fun racing to worry about the cars. And Spec E30 isn't about the cars, it's about the racing. Traditionally, we have a passion for a certain make or model of car. And that's great. But spec racing is about the competition and the fun of racing. This surprises a lot of people but I'm not a "BMW guy." I chose the E30 because it's a durable car with a large aftermarket parts industry. And it's rear wheel drive. Yes, it's fun to paint our cars bright colors and to add some decals to make them look like real race cars but in the end, the car is just a tool to get me across the finish line as quickly as I can drive it. That's why we have kept the cars simple...and because many of us are saving for our kids' college. Recently, I have heard that some other spec series are going back on allowed mods, to be more like Spec E30.

I'm not "pitching" Spec E30 here but have a look at our website. Read some of the posts. You'll get a good idea about what we're doing. Interestingly, people have gotten to know our cars and drivers and the Spec E30 race is known to provide the most entertainment for the club racing spectator.

And if a Spec Milano series appears, I hope it is successful. I've always enjoyed seeing them on the track.

Good luck,

Carter

ps I guess the part about "brief" went out the window... ;-)

[nizam]

Thanks for the post, Carter.

[alfafredly]

Thanks JJ for telling me about this thread.....

It is great to read Carter's thoughts on SpecE30. It is clear they have a great formula that works. His thoughts on spec racing are right on. It is a blast.

Last year was my first year in PRO3 here in the NW. Our series is a bit more costly mainly due to suspension mods/headers/no ABS/weight reduction, etc. I have north of $20K in my car (mainly have others work on my car, but have sponsor now- Yahoo).

I think that the mods we allow make our cars faster so the level of skill required to run at the front is greater = more challenge. One of the real key benefits I see is better tire wear due to our suspensions and the adjustments we can make for each track.

What would a Milano spec series be like? I am guessing it would be as fun as any spec series? Yes the sound of the V-6 is special and the Milano is a special car but really it is just another spec series. The challenge I see is that the Milano was never a huge seller here and let's face it these cars just weren't that popular. And my guess is the cost of building one is going to be more than SpecE30 but less than PRO3 say $12-15K? Maybe I am off a grand one way or the other.

How many doner cars are out there - really?

JJ maybe you should be the test mule and build one to run here in Conference? Maybe then you convince several others to join in. Me???

[81gtv6]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carter If everyone has the stock glass, why spend the time and money buying, measuring, cutting, and installing lexan? If all the cars are turning 2:20:00 at VIR and the rules allow some new part, all the cars will be running 2:18:00. What has been accomplished? Nothing regarding the actual racing...but the drivers had to spend money...

[Grant]

I think coilovers are the best mainstream option. All of the performatek goodies still leave the chassis a bit wanting IMO. The sad thing is, the coilovers aren't a whole lot more than all the performatek bits (not attacking Andy or his business, these parts are just obscure and low demand). I personally like the old school T-bars and springs setup instead, but for a racing series I think the RSR coilovers are more practical. They allow the drivers to use different spring rates (if that would be allowed) and are easier for the home mechanic to install than 33mm torsion bars and thicker sway bars (including the rear bar which requires the transmission to be dropped down slightly).

And for everything else, the cheaper the better.

Another thing to keep in mind: What is this going to do to the existing Milanos and GTV6's? These cars are cheap now, but what if they become classics? Will we be regretting racing all of these rare cars?

Maybe we should have a Spec S3 spider series instead -- way more of them to choose from!

[Zarcon]

Since they are all equal anyway, why not just run stock torsion bars and springs? I suspect that the answer is that the stock items are unsuitable for modern track tires. I have a solution for this too: Use cheap tires as the spec. Maybe the Kumho Ecsta 711 or whatever the current equivalent. I recall those costing about $55 per tire.
It may be true that these cars have body roll in stock form, and can benifit greatly from modification, but who cares? They are balanced and fun in stock form. The best way to make this work is to make the spec easy to prepare and as cheap as possible.

Autopower cage
fuel cell
five point harness
spec bilstiens
poly bushings allowed
high minimum weight (to keep preparation simple)
stock motor and electronics (wont be too hard to figure out if someone has cams or high comp, porting might be tough to catch).
open differential (stock 2.5 doesnt need lsd anyway. If a platinum owner doesnt like it, then he can surely trade his platinum transaxle for an open one along with some cash).
allow specific types of brake pads

This car would be cheap and fun (as long as nobody else is allowed to have RSR suspension and Girotech brakes). I would like to run in such a series. I bet that a car could be put together by a backyard mechanic for less than $4,000.

I think that it is very unlikely that I would participate since I am from the midwest, but I would like to see such a series be tried. I hope you NW guys can make it happen.

[Grant]

I think some suspension mods are in order. It wouldn't be a whole lot of fun watching a bunch of stock 80's cars careening and rolling around corners, front tires howling......

Take that kind of car out to a performance driving event, a lot of stock cars are out there.

[Echo Leader]

This is an awesome discussion guys. It would really be amazing if the concept could get off the ground... awesomeness would ensue.

And big 'Thanks' go to Carter for contributing all that information about the startup and management of SpecE30. I think that series is a good inpsiration for the ideas here and a good template from which to work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant The sad thing is, the coilovers aren't a whole lot more than all the performatek bits (not attacking Andy or his business, these parts are just obscure and low demand).

[DaveH]

It seems to me that the logical thing to do is to go racing in Spec E30.

Lightning will strike me down....!

[borrani]

Nahhh, nothing revs or sounds like the Alfa V6!

Don't go cheap on the roll cage. A custom welded one, done correctly, is much better fitting and probably safer (easier to get the wounded driver out of, and offers better visibility) than a bolt in.

Racing is expensive, so may as well make it fun, go with a good R-compound tire. What we don't have in outright power, we make up in our balanced chassis, so exploit what we got.

Steve S.
Seattle, WA

[Echo Leader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by borrani Don't go cheap on the roll cage. A custom welded one, done correctly, is much better fitting and probably safer (easier to get the wounded driver out of, and offers better visibility) than a bolt in.