Drop Spindle Discussion

[TS_turbo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant Why does heavy negative camber cause tow in? Is this why I've read someone mentioning camber thrust, and using tow out to counteract this?

[BigSwede]

It becomes a cone? The tire will be it's original shape as soon as it's off the ground.

[TS_turbo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigSwede It becomes a cone? The tire will be it's original shape as soon as it's off the ground.

[fast-alfa75]

AARRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!! Forget about the drop spindles for a moment. Forget about the spring rates and the size of sway bars for a moment. There are two key elements to the RS Racing package that are being overlooked.

1. The watts link package. Think about the job the watts does. By keeping the dedion to chassis relationship as tight as possible, the rear of the car is more predicable. SET IT AND FORGET IT. It will not snap on you as a car with the rubber bushes. When there is lateral weight transfer in the back of the vehicle, combined with brake dive (addressed in #2) if there is deflection in the watts, a less than graceful set of the rear of the car will result in a "sudden oversteer", even if the turn began with some understeer. With zero defelction in the watts, the back of the car is far more neutral.

2. Dampeners. The RS Dampeners are valved for the application, and the use. The springs alone are not responsible for "bottoming out." Compression and rebound are both addressed with the RS kit. Too little compression valving and of course the nose of the vehicle is pointed down under braking. Weight transfer occurs. At the same point in time the rear of the vehicle lifts. Rebound valving ALSO could be causing this in the rear of the vehicle.

I currently run a 87 Milano with the following:

22mm Torsion Bars
RS Racing 30mm front bar
RS Racing Watts link kit
Shankle rear springs
Shankle rear bar
Bilstiens
Team Dynamics 15x7 Wheels
Toyo Proxes RA1 205-50-15 tires
With this combination, an aggressive low ride height, 3 degrees of camber, the car is quick. BUT, too much brake dive (fix is two part: more front spring and better dampening) and too much lift and roll in the rear(fix more rear spring, lower the rear, and better dampening) The lesson here is a combination of parts is not the answer. I have learned to be quick in the car, but observers point out these complaints of mine as well, stating the car rolls a lot. They are right. I have driven Ron's RS Racing kit in anger at the Nurburgring and at Spa. IT WORKS. Want something "tuneable or adjustable?" Buy his kit with the adjustable dampeners. Hope this helps.

[BigSwede]

You can't fix dive and roll with shock settings. Needs to be cured with geometry changes and/or springs/AR-bars.

[fast-alfa75]

Big Swede... you are so right. Dampeners alone are not the answer. I described a condition that required uprated springs as well.

[nizam]

Grant, it's been many hours since your track time ended. What did you learn? Got pics?

[75evo]

I was there, but only for 2 sessions. I had a nice run with a VW GTI 2.0T FSI with some loud exhaust system.

It didn't quite have the poke I thought it would have. Possibly stock with an exhaust. I'm pretty sure if it wasn't chipped or it would have put bus lengths on my car.

I wanted to see how much go the GTI had. So after each turn where there was a straight away and passing was allowed, I found that I was able put my car's nose on the side his rear quarter panel before I let off. I did this a few times before setting up for a pass.

Then after much waiting, at the bottom of the carousel I got on the power a wee bit earlier than him and went to his front door. I wasn't much quicker, but just had enough go to be on the inside of him before turn 7 (the hairpin).

Not a bad event, but I prefer AROSC events.

Louis was there too. His car is quick!

No pics as I didn't bring my camera. Lots of Japo cars. In fact in our group, we had tons of STIs and EVOs. But some of them were just putting around.....

[Grant]

I just got home. ( Spent an hour in Berkeley with the parents, and a rather large section of the freeway connector is missing on 880...).

Louis took me out in his car during "parade" laps. He didn't really get a chance to go balls out, but we let the pace car and followers gather some distance, and then played "I'm legitimately racing my car on the track in an HPDE like event."

RSR rocks! On the track atleast. I've never argued against this, but having stiff spring on a racetrack makes a car grip. Like crazy. It wasn't just the grip though -- on my car with it's softish 27mm torsion bars, there was a noticeable delay after turning in....I guess the car's rolling before it sets up. 75evo was behind me on one outing, and he didn't fell like my car rolled that much. Louis then rode with me, and thought my car was going to topple over. I can see why; Louis' car had essentially no boddy roll.

After messing around with my adjustable rear sway bar (softest setting, then second softest, then second stiffest) I never really could get rid of the understeer. With the bar at the second stiffest, I could get the tail to rotate a little when lifting off during the esses, but not much else besides powersliding.

While we never reached the limit on Louis' car, the immediacy of turn in and grip made it seem like a pretty awesome track toy. I was quite envious (Louis want an E30 M3 over the 24V Larry monster????). I some how imagined that having such stiff spring on such a floppy car would feel kind of funny, but it seemed to work just fine.

I'm basically wishing I had easy access to 29 or 30mm torsion bars now. That, with some adjustable spring perches for the rear and various springs, coupled with the drop spindles would yield a pretty similar feeling car. Or, I could just buy the RS kit, which makes a lot more sense. For me though, buying things piece by piece makes it seem easier on the wallet than saving up for a long time for an additional $1800 suspension kit or wahtever it is. 240's have coilovers for $800 and up!

No pictures, I didn't bring a camera. For my next event, I want to mount a camera in the car. The professional pictures were around $35 for one photo, or $80 for like 5 photos on a CD! They did let me see the photos, and I noticed one major thing: I had obvious positive camber up front when loading my car up. The tire wear kinda suggested the same. Before I give up on Shankle stuff, I want to hit the track with more negative camber and the drop spindles. I can live with the slower turn in respsonse aslong as the car grips.

[nizam]

Glad you guys had a good time. But do bring a camera next time, bro(s) At the very least, I post pics whenever I get out there!

Helps the rest of us live through the pics vicariously

Just save up and buy the RSRacing kit, Grant. In the meantime, just use what you have and get better at it.

[Potenziato]

Hey, It was a good time. Grant did a clutch kick while I was riding with him on the parade lap. Got to love it.

I rode in Grant's car and he is right that he has too little grip in the front.

Saw a bunch of weird cars there including the RHD Spoon Acura RL race car.

[BigSwede]

Since we're already wildly OT:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...80978819856302

From last Saturday.

[Grant]

Nice video. What do you think made the 75's so fast?

Did you do anything special with the camera? It's set up well...you can see alot of you as well as the road. Nice.

[nizam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant Nice video. What do you think made the 75's so fast?

[Grant]

Or RSRacing...