Drop Spindle Discussion

[Jamxx]

Sorry, didn't mean to post here.

[Grant]

In America, we have 25mm T-bars...they're sporting, and not too stiff at all, soI've heard. The problem with the stock bars is when you are running a really low car, you constantly have to worry about bottoming out.

[Grant]

Interesting observations Louis. I'll take that into consideration. I was jus thinking that I might as well buy some drop spindles because I have to take one LCA out anyways. I want to add much more negative camber, but I cut the lower control arm bolt too much when I installed it (to clear th edown pipe). So stupidly, I have dissasemble the entire thing and to put a new bolt in. What a waste. I think I might bring the ride-height up a tad at the same time.

Get back to me on the spindle proposition when you can.

[slyalfa]

I have to say reeading this I am a bit confused.
One has a car with too much front grip (aka oversteer) then trys drop spindles that if anything should increase the grip. but tested on a car with too much front grip to start with..

I would think the only way to tell is to have a balanced car first then try the drop spindles.
if you get oversteer then the drop spindles work and if you get understeer they do not.

as a rule any grip Improvement in the front will cause oversteer and any Improvement in the back understeer. so the long R & D is the fix the front then fix the back. Back and forth untill you can't get any better then undo one some to match the other.
So in this case it IS A balancing act

[Grant]

What you're saying below is true, but that's not how he tested the drop spindles.

[nizam]

Grant, what is your goal for this car again? Do you want it to be neutral/balanced or slightly on the loose side?

In the 101/105 world, they are divided between those two schools of thought.

For your reference, my postings have always been biased to making the car neutral with a hint of understeer at lower speeds. That's how I like my car. I have lap times and YouTube vids to prove it! Other folks (you) may want something else altogether, but you need to tell us so we could hopefully help you out. This discussion is all over the place and everyone's right!

Finally, I have to reaffirm what JJ and Louis have said; always get a package. I think the three of us have gone "full circle" many times before we settled on the suspension settings we like (not all the same with one another). Don't even ask how much money was spent in the process. We're just trying to save you some $$$ in the long run

[cchan]

Ok, I know this sounds dumb but what is a drop spindle? I don't think I have this since I have a Full RS suspension sans the rear roll bar (Shankle for now). Just waiting for the bolt on RS rear suspension and then everything will match. I do agree that you should go with a package set up. AMG for Mercedes or M for BMW. ETC for Alfa.

Anyway, FYI, RS suspension feels good for the very limited drive time I had. Alfa felt very balanced. Nose did not go up on accelleration, Down on Braking, nor roll when I was making the U turns w/o braking. All and All I have no basis for comparisions with other tuners for Alfas but the RS set up seems tight.

[Grant]

Nizam,

I'd like something that's adjustable...I can make it nuetral at speed for stability out on the track, or something that will rotate easily for autoX and daily driving.

I'm mainly trying to figure out if drop spindles work or not. I have this theory in my head that seems right to me, but Louis is telling me D-spindles don't do that much. If I can get more people to affirm this, then I won't bother plunking down the money to get some. But ultimately, it bothers me that my suspension geometry is so screwed up when the car is down low, the way I like it. Alfas to me are about finesse and using super high spring rates to cover up the poor geometry doesn't seem very appealing. Plus, the car just doesn't grip as hard as I think it should. I'm also trying to learn from this experience. Just buying a complete package, while much easier and cheaper, will most likely give me something that's really great out of the box, I want to figure out how suspension dynamics work.

So how about you Nizam, have you had an opportunity to drive the car with or without the d-spindles? Do you think they do much?

And does anyone know how the RS system make a car tail happy? Are the spring rates really stiff in the rear or something? Do I just need to increase my rear spring rates to something much higher?

O yeah, one other thing. I don't want oversteer because I "drift" or whatever. I have an entire different car to subject to that kind of abuse, I just want my Alfa to suit my driving style (tail happy when I want it to be).

Thanks all for the info and advice so far!

[Potenziato]

On the RS Kit, you would use the rear sway bar to determine balance. Use the holes to shorten the bar to give it more stiffness or looser to allow a more neutral style.

I switched my tire pressures to 36 rear and 32 front and it feels quite a bit better. I usually run it the other way thinking it would reduce understeer. I guess there is a certain front to rear roll stiffness required to balance a transaxle chassis.

[nizam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant I'm mainly trying to figure out if drop spindles work or not.

[Potenziato]

Quote:

Originally Posted by nizam Long story short, I think you'll learn a lot more if you just called up JJ and get yourself a whole RSRacing kit. With the kit, you can change the spring rates and ride height as you wish ... trackside even! In closing, I'm going to state that I do believe drop spindles will improve camber angles even an RSRacing-equipped Milano. Alas, I cannot back-up that statement - yet.

[nizam]

There you go Grant. It's unanimous -- buy the RSRacing kit. I'll defer to Louis with respect to the drop spindles combination with the kit since he has first hand experience.

[Grant]

Based on what I've just read here I'd stop thinking about D-spindles and start eating Cup of Noodles. I agree that the people involved in this thread are all telling me to just buy Ron's kit and it's like 3 against 1 so I'm probably wrong.

But the thing is, I was on the phone with Larry Jr. today for nearly an hour. I'll bet your guys' patience is wearing thin so I'm not going to go into detail with everything he told me on the phone (and a lot of the conversation didn't even have to do with D-spindles). He basically said though that with a 16" D-spindle and with my LCA's pointed down to the ground a tad (so that the outside LCA is level under full cornering) it will just about eliminate my understeer (without resorting to reducing the traction in the rear) and allow me to run soft enough spring rates for the bumpy stuff aswell as allow me to daily my ride. His reference was his GTV6 race car with 25.4mm t-bars and shankle rear springs. He said that he was very happy with his car's grip and was eventually able to chase race prepped GTV's in the AROSC races..all with koni yellows, fast road springs and D-spindles.

Your guys' school of thought seems sound, and Larry's seems sound as well. Why am I sticking with my theory? Basically, I don't want to throw away the 1.5K I have in suspension so far and I think I'm getting close to my end goal. Some would say, "with that 1.5K you could have just about bought an RSR kit anyways." This is true, but I've learned a TON since I started my project with a $500 verde. As long as I eventually find a happy point, I'm not going to regret trying to piece my stuff together.

I have to take off one LCA anyways to add more neg. camber, so I might as well. After installing D-spindles, if I don't get the results that I think I'm going to get I promise I'll sell some stuff and get an RSR kit (because I respect all of your opinions). I'll even update this thread with my thoughts for future reference. D-spindles aren't even super expensive, so it still seems like a logical route to travel. I mean after these spindles, there isn't much left anywas...I'm happy with my shocks, my front bar, rear bar, and the rates of my torsion bars.

And as far as the learning argument goes, I want to add that I have time and I'm not just looking to mess around with ride-height and changing spring rates. I want to try and apply what I learned in Carrol Smith's book on my Alfa. We'll see how it goes. Should be interesting for those involved in this discussion anyways.

[nizam]

No, we love a good discussion. The problem is, we have nothing empirical to present, merely readings from our butt dynos ... and you know those are generally calibrated very differently from one another!

That said, I do maintain I like my DS in the setup I have.