Drop Spindle Discussion

[Alfar7]

I`m for your test JJ. Kills my SPO car with Alt. Killed Alfa GT2 with alt. Lets have reports!

[Grant]

I think you two are going a bit too far with this. Maybe you guys should take this off the board via PM's or something. This thread is quite informative and we should keep it that way.

[junglejustice]

This is informative too and a VERY important safety issue that even somebody like Richard can miss (it would seem...)

While I do agree that it probably warrants a separate thread, keep in mind that I had it in a separate thread and then the man took the subject from there (my thread on the 3.7), pulled some crap out of his arse and dragged it all over here - and erroneously so!

I'll drop it if somebody else will do the test and then concede that he is wrong! He is senile and since I happen to be his target on this forum for some reason, I just have to grin and smile!? No thanks!

It's easy Grant; start your car up, let it idle, pull the ground (negative) terminal off of the battery - tell us what happens!

He places ANY reasonable person in a position where one has NO other choice but to defend one-self (and to prevent somebody else from following his moronic advice and maybe damaging a car, or hurting - or worse yet - killing someone!

Richard - just for splits and giggles, I just went outside and did the same "test" on my 164 and yep - you guessed it - works exactly the same as on my Milano; you start it up, pull the negative ground cable from the battery and guess what happens? That's correct - nothing!

The motor keeps running!

Simply wiring the battery ground via the kill-switch (as you have suggested here and the subject of my heated protest), only serves to disengage the starter when you turn the kill-switch to the off position! If the car was running in the event of an accident and a marshal tried to shut it off, the alternator would keep it running! Said corner worker could pull the whole ****ing battery out and the car would still be running!

You HAVE to kill the alternator's feed to the circuit; with more modern ignition systems it is even more effective to just kill the ECU and /or the coil-packs... With all of your superior knowledge and intellect and race-experience, one would think that you would understand something this basic, Richard!

[gtv27]

hehehehe Its good having you blokes around to duke it out for our amusement. Keep up the good work!

Since we've moved from suspension to electrics, do either of you have a view on Iraq or climate change (since they are at least as relevant to front suspension geometry as the last couple of pages...)

[Echo Leader]

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtv27 Nice summary - you did a much better job of explaining some points I tried to make.

[MALDI]

Can anyone answer a few simple questions for me?

When Alfa changed the ride height to meet US bumper height regulations did they just adjust the torsion bars, or did they do something more complex?

The drop spindle sounds like the most direct solution. If so, why didn't they come from the factory like this?

[nizam]

MALDI - the "problem" as it were, only exhibits itself when one lowers the car beyond factory specs (i.e. it's not really an issue if you put it back to the European/Rest of World specifications). From the factory, the highest performance wheel/tire size was 195/55/15. Even the Turbo Evoluzione's came with that tire size, which by today's standards might as well be bicycle width tires. As a package, there was nothing wrong with how it came from the factory. I was happy with my stock Milano Gold for years ... it rode well, handled great, and even got great mileage.

Problem is, there's guys like us who want it to go faster, and quicker around corners so stock spring rates (or torsion bar rates) are no longer sufficient. Ride heights have to be reduced to lower roll centers in order to be competitive on the racetrack. This "problem" is really a "problem" only for those who track their cars, or those who'd like to operate their chassis beyond the original design parameters.

[turbolarespider]

Point of reference.

richards car is a GT2 car. Which means (if I'm not mistaken) that it does not have an alternator. So if you do remove one of the lines to the battery, indeed, everything should shut off.

However, if you have an alternator, you have a different source for power- the battery just starts the controlling. If you remove the alternator, the regulator will not be very happy, but it will still run- we've jumped a car w/o jumper cables by removing the battery from one car, and putting it in the other, and keeping car 1 running all the time by making sure the positive side does not ground out.

In terms of building a race car, it does have some implications- with a battery only, one could get away without running fuses or breakers, because once a line gets grounded, it will probably drain the battery fast enough to stall the motor before the ground gets good enough to draw high amperage. With an alternator, you should run a breaker/fuse since that same small ground will not drain anything, and actually make the alternator work harder, to the point where the drain will eventually get really hot.

It's all relative in what you are working on.

As for the suspension, again, the POINT is to keep the tire square on the road ALL THE TIME. There are many ways to skin that cat, and both methods have their improvements, depending on the setting. Listening to you guys argue is funny, though... (like Nizam said, for some people, nothing needs to happen, as all season tires will break away before the tires lean over much at all...).

Eric

[Graham D]

#217The drop spindle sounds like the most direct solution. If so, why didn't they come from the factory like this?
Probably not room to do so with original 14" wheels. Keep in mind that the first objective was to sell the car as transportation to the commuter consumer with a little four-leaf-clover lettuce for the performance oriented types. Remember too that chassis and suspensions are designed for the tires commonly available at the time.

[MALDI]

nizam and Graham D: thanks for schooling a neophyte!

[Grant]

One thing though, on these Milanos atleast, we're raising the roll center on the front after the RC has dropped way down from lowering. Leaving the RC where it was when I first lowered my car made it an understeering pig, as the low RC caused the front end to want to roll more and have less grip. After installing lengthened spindles, I saw a noticeable improvement in steering response ( I do have bump steer corrections though) and cornering grip from the front end.

[Graham D]

Wouldn't it be great fun for JJ and Richard to each field a car in the next Tirerack Cannonball One Lap? The Rice (University) Rockets plan to be there with their supercharged entry and I cannot imagine a more delightful scene than three (or more) Milano's tearing up the turf and chewing the tail's off the more modern competition. In my dreams.

[scott.venables]

Grant where you posted the spring rates of various torsion bars on page 9 post #123 are these wheel rates or values at the shock mount?

Thanks,
Scott

[Grant]

Sorry Scott, it's just information that I got from a catalog. I'm going to guess that it's just the rates of the springs only as that seems to be the typical values given.

[scott.venables]

Thanks Grant. They're probably spring rates at the wheel. I'm thinking about putting together coilovers for the front of my car and I want to aim for the same stiffness as 27mm torsion bars. Then I can buy matching springs for the rear.

Does anyone else know about the spring rates posted on P9?