Drop Spindle Discussion

[junglejustice]

...as with my name - the relationships/friendships that I foster, my location, phone number, affiliations, address, experience (or lack thereof,) what I do and don't do, or any of that stuff is not any great secret here... Google away gramps - no dirt here! (Well, there was that time in school...)

My contributions to what we build and what I was a part of and what NOT, is very well-documented here! The website was clearly built to highlight the work done by Glenwood and not ever represented as my own! What I am capable of is also a known - I do not feel the need to justify any of it to you!

Not part of Ron's development team however, a VERY active part of driving, installing, using, advising and yes, sometimes assisting in the sales of those setups! I believe in them because of my experience driving MANY different road and race cars with a variety of setups on a variety of tracks and yes, his numbers show over 400 bars in circulation and over 250 pairs of coil-overs running world-wide! Must be a reason for it...

The torsion bar can never do the job that a coil-over can - even Porsche gave up trying. (Besides, the long Alfa bars are nothing compared to the effectiveness of the short German design!) Period. With the torsion bars retained, the need for the welding DOES NOT exist when adding the coil-overs.

Did I race 105 cars with Moses and Aaron? No. Do I need that experience to know what works today on a TA car? No. You can point out whatever you want to - it doesn't bother me - just don't pass off a half-baked idea like welding drop spindles as the Alpha and the Omega - like you're curing cancer or something...

I still can't get you to live up to one indisputable fact; eliminate the roll and the LCA-position becomes a non-event!

[turbolarespider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by junglejustice ...I still can't get you to live up to one indisputable fact; eliminate the roll and the LCA-position becomes a non-event!

[Alfar7]

JJ you again gave no useful info, and spewing foolish concepts. Your quote:
I still can't get you to live up to one indisputable fact; eliminate the roll and the LCA-position becomes a non-event! indicates that harsh spring rates are everything. Why don`t you just weld the suspension up? Again maybe you need to re-read Steve`s post for some reference materials:
There is a limit to the theoretical spindle position would be. But this is not about theory. 1.5" is the limit. I strongly suggest referring to the books by Fred Puhn, or even Herb Adams or Carroll Smith. I've got more time than money. These (may I say) tomes will send you on a path to handling nirvana.
You have indicated no real experience and nothing you have developed yourself, but your post are full of information the group should take as FACT. I DON`T THINK SO!!!
"just don't pass off a half-baked idea like welding drop spindles as the Alpha and the Omega - like you're curing cancer or something..."
You forgot the steering arm adjustments! I think that is the "omega".....

[alfaspence]

No offence to either of you (jj, richard)
But the way i see this, this argument will go on indefinatly
You BOTH have good equal arguments, that part cannot be denied but what are you going to acheive from this constant bickering?
I may not or even try to know half as much as alot of you here on this forum but what i can see is 2 very clever men embarrassing themselves
You are not going to convince each other that your idea is best, so why not quit now? If it works for your application then good luck to ya
And once again i'll appologise now if ive upset anybody but thats the way it is

[Potenziato]

So did the Alfa 75 touring cars and IMSA cars use geometry modifications to the spindle? I would imagine they must have.

It must be absolutely a pain to make a lengthened spindle. I wound imagine a very precise jig would have to be made to hold it during the welding process. Than I guess you would have to X ray them to check the integrity of the welds. $$$

[75evo]

I've seen some photos of the race EVOs' front suspension setup. In some cases I'm not sure if it is even close to being modified stock components. Some of them are machined from some kind of aluminum billet, not even close to factory.

Same goes with the dedion in the IMSA car at Alfa's Museo Storico, not the same as the stock one on our cars.

I think it depends which team had the car, and which series they competed in. The suspension setup could range from modified stock parts to totally custom.

Anyway, why did the SZ have coilovers AND drop spindles?

I think we're talking about fast road cars and not a full race car, correct? So there could be more than one solution to this. Seems like Alfa's solution was to slightly stiffen the suspension and improved its geometry.

[Alfar7]

Quote:

but what are you going to acheive from this constant bickering?

[gtv27]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant Just to clarify, I'm in the camp that likes softer spring rates and repaired suspension geometries. I've edited my type-o in the above post Another thing to ask yourself when reading all of these opinions is, what do you want to do with your car? My "race car" is also my daily driver. I'm rather glad I'm not running the spring rates that RSR has, but can definitely say that out on the track, I wished I had RSR spring rates! Mats alsways brings up the poing that your alignment goes wonky if you brake hard with softer spring rates, which I think must be true. So even though with the D-spindles my car seems to grip a lot better, I'm sure I'm giving up some braking performance. But I'm tracking my car about .05% of the time I'm driving it, so that compromise is OK. What are your goals? Can you see why everyone is arguing here?

[gtv27]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Echo Leader Now I'm curious why you consider countering a subterranean RC and wonky roll stiffness by selecting relatively high spring rates and attempting to create a solid front axle with relatively thick anti-roll bars the "right" setup? To me, this seems to be something akin to 'treating the symptoms'. If that makes any sense.....Thus what you're attempting to do is overcome the problem, that you've just created when lowering the car, by increasing wheel rates and in turn roll stiffness. It's not so much about spending money, or about using coils vs. torsions. It's more about how you want to solve this roll stiffness issue, and each option probably has pros and cons. I just want to learn what all these are so that when the time comes, I can figure out what I want to do. Now, if you're significantly lowering the ride height, you're introducing a major change to the overall design parameters of the suspension. Thus it's not a flaw in the overall design of the suspension, it's now a design that's being forced to operate outside of the parameters for which it was originally conceived. With this thought in mind, I think creating a spindle that allows the chassis to be lowered while restoring OEM geometry would be the most "gentle" (?) solution, as you would only be correcting the geometry issues that your lowering the chassis caused. If this was done, the result would be the lowered chassis and OEM geometry. In such a scenario I would then accept that any following changes would be made to address "flaws in the original design", though 'flaws' may still be a harsh word. There's little point in going to the hassle of making yourself a new drop spindle though and keeping the stock geometry when it can be tweeked for more track performance, so this is probably always done. I guess I tend to look at the geometry of the suspension as your foundation. This geometry is going to influence all your design considerations. So if you first engineer the foundational geometry or your lowered chassis to be less flawed, you secondary suspension design decisions can be less compromised by the need to overcome issues introduced if the car was lowered without correction. So if you've got a nice looking camber curve, maybe you don't need quite as high a wheel rate...or if your front roll couple isn't gigantic, maybe you don't need quite as much spring rate to achieve the same roll stiffness?? I'd really like to see the difference something like a properly executed drop spindle makes on two close to identical setups. I think the RSR would be an even better solution then it currently is (which is excellent as far as I can tell) if it could be integrated with a drop spindle. Maybe there could be reductions in spring and roll bar rates while maintaining the same amount of body control! And wouldn't that basically be a good thing for everyone??

[junglejustice]

Richard,

I pale by comparison to your superior knowledge and intellect.... I think that I'll just go and curl up in a ball somewhere - fade in to obscurity. Before I go however, I am unsure about something and I seek your forged wisdom:

Should I file this thread away under "useless information" or under "inept nitwit"...? 2nd 3.7 Litre 24 Valve Milano Project!

Are you familiar with the term "tosser"...?

[Alfar7]

No, i`m afraid I am not familiar with the term?

I pale by comparison to your superior knowledge and intellect.... I think that I'll just go and curl up in a ball somewhere - fade in to obscurity. Before I go however, I am unsure about something and I seek your forged wisdom:

Should I file this thread away under "useless information" or under "inept nitwit"...? 2nd 3.7 Litre 24 Valve Milano Project!

No, I`d file it under showcasing, and not a helpfull responce to someone`s posting. However nice car. Have some help I`d guess.....

However I will toss you this regarding your last post there:

If you wire the cutoff switch to the battery`s GROUND wire, you would not have to be concerned with the alternator continuing to charge the system.

Want to try another?

[junglejustice]

Thanks for the tip there Richard - got it covered... See how it easy that was? To be nice..? (...well, sort of...)

Nope - going to battery ground doesn't get you there (same problem - different colour wire, that's all - the alternator is still earthed - you have to kill the engine management system!)

Help? Sure! I don't paint or weld worth a ****. Do you have a CNC, a MIG and a TIG at home - custom fab aluminium like those intakes yourself? Do you line-bore crank-journals at home? I like that plasma heat-treating plant right in your drive-way there...

Nah, we all need and use help at some point - even you I would suspect!

So far so good - other than paint and the cage and a couple of brackets here and there, what you see there I have done myself. The specialty stuff (like the 3.7) I leave up to the guys who have done it for 30-40 years!

I was going to have you build a gearbox for me, (or at least try one of your space shuttle clutches after our first phone conversation some time ago) however, given our recent interaction here on the BB since then, I think that I will just keep my business with Andrew Garcia.

He's fair, competent and he's nice.

[Alfar7]

Sorry John. Again you are misinforming. When the negative side of the system is removed from curcuit, all is cut off. You`re right, the alternator is grounded, duh, but when the ground curcuit is broke to the battery, it quits making a field to create electricity. It`s dead ! Works for me