Drop Spindle Discussion

[Grant]

Sly,

What link are you talking about?
sway bar?

If you change your wheel to a smaller one (probably possible with stock size...I know I can't do it though), you can keep track of where the wheel is when you're counter steering by quickly moving your outside hand (the hand that is closest to the outside of the turn) with the wheel as it "spins itself". That way, you will have an accurate idea of where the front wheels are pointing. This is really important b/c if you grab the wheel after letting is spin and incorrectly think you have the wheels pointing in a direction that they are not, as soon as the rear end regains traction, the car will quickly be rotating the opposite way, into a pole or something.

If you have ever seen a video of a pro drifter in the car, they always know exactly where the front wheels are pointing b/c they never fully let go of the wheel.

[Echo Leader]

Congrats Grant! The understeer situation with your car had me rather worried that I'd be disappointed with the chassis balance if I didn't go to extreme lengths.

I hope you're enjoying the car a bit more. If you ever decided to swap the spindles again for a more relevant comparison of their effect, I'd be extremely interested in any results!

[BigSwede]

Grant: I can't remember, did you bend the de-Dion or not. Seems like the logical move here if you want some more rear end grip.

[Echo Leader]

Mats, I don't think he has. But I think he mentioned he's got a spare one he can experiment with.

Does the bending occur with the DeDion on the car? So far I've been unable to locate a shop that'll bend it for me. Most of the RV/Truck alignment shops say they don't want to work on racecars due to liability or the picky nature of the owners...

[BigSwede]

No, and I have no experience with RV-shops either. I cut and weld myself.
Liability on a racecar? How about an RV, surely an RV owner is much more likely to sue in case of "problems". I mean a race is a race, no cars or parts are covered by any sort of warranty, ever.

[Grant]

Mats, you're right I forgot about that possibility. We'll see if I end up going down that route.

What about my original question about staggered tire sizes though? have 0 camber in the back should reduce wheel spin on tight corners with the stiff rear bar, no?

Echo,

I have driven with this same setup, with only minus the drop spindles and ony -1 degree camber and the front end felt very weak. Even if the car was nuetral, it just didn't have grip up front.

But you realise, this setup will ultimately be slower at the track than RSR car, just b/c my spring rates are soo soft. So if lap times are your priority, my setup isn't the best way to go I don't think.

[Echo Leader]

Mats, Those were my thoughts as well. Just recounting what I was told though. [insert shrug here] I sure wasn't about to tell the guy how to run his business though as he's big enough to bend the DeDion by hand.

Grant, oh ok. I didn't realize you'd had the bar situation sorted out at one point while the rest of the suspension was installed. Good to hear that it was at least mostly neutral. When you say kind of weak but neutral, do you mean weak on turn-in or maybe roll weak, but neutral once steady state has been achieved?

And yes, I realize the RSR is going to be the best easily available option for 'maximum attack'. However, much of my driving is going to be in autocross scenarios and I don't think I can add a coil-over setup to the T-bars and still participate in any normal street class. So if I was going to kick it up a notch over the 27mm Tbars, I'd still likely think about a 33mm set or something just so I can play by the rules.

[BigSwede]

Grant. What is your goal with the car?

My thoughts. In the tight corner your talking about, surely you are at maximum lateral grip yes? So you want to accelerate like a madman at the same time? Why not sort out that chassis so you can pull more lateral G's and take the same corner at a higher speed, i.e. not slowing down as much? Or maybe going the same speed but having some grip left over for accelerating?

Zero camber on any tire is just wrong, it doesn't work without camber, maybe for straight line accelerating but seriously, who builds a GTV/75 for straight line acceleration without throwing the de-Dion on the heap for a good four-link?
Zero camer on race rubber is grounds for a head exam...

[Grant]

Weak as in not much front end grip, so I'd have to compensate by making the rear end weak as well (stiff setting on the rear bar), but that just led to a slow car that wanted to snap oversteer.

Mats, I agree with you but putting on larger rear tires for now is easier than finding a place that will permanantly modify my dedion. If it will reduce inside tire spin as well (which neagative camber should make worse) it doesn't sound like too terrible of a compromise.

My goals are to have a fast daily driver with many autocrosses and track events a year. Some semblance of driveability is required. Even with the aftermarket shocks and springs, I never get tired of the ride. It's jiggly but acceptable. My friends with coilovers on their Nissans on the other hand.... If I want to make an all out track car, I'll look into a GTV-6 I think, or maybe even a non-alfa?

[Potenziato]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant Mats, I agree with you but putting on larger rear tires for now is easier than finding a place that will permanantly modify my dedion. If it will reduce inside tire spin as well (which neagative camber should make worse) it doesn't sound like too terrible of a compromise. My goals are to have a fast daily driver with many autocrosses and track events a year. Some semblance of driveability is required. Even with the aftermarket shocks and springs, I never get tired of the ride. It's jiggly but acceptable. My friends with coilovers on their Nissans on the other hand.... If I want to make an all out track car, I'll look into a GTV-6 I think, or maybe even a non-alfa?

[Grant]

On very tight turns, yes. The rear sway bar really limits your longitudinal grip.

[gtv27]

Grant, sounds like the rear bar may now be TOO STIFF (if I am correct in reading that inside wheelspin and oversteer are the symptoms). This must answer your question about the impact of the change in front geometry (has gone from weak front to weak rear - although I'd say some of that is due to the extra camber at the front). Do you have a smaller rear bar to fit to it (std perhaps?) to see how that affects the balance.

Keep up the good work. Great to hear the empirical evidence.

[Alfar7]

PHP Code:

Grant, you really get inside wheel to spin with a LSD and the stock motor? 


LSD is not working!!

[Grant]

GTV27,

Change the rear bar back to stock? After paying 200 euros, and spending many rain soaked hours in the middle of the night before a track event to install it? I think I'll try every conceivable alternative before I go back to stock

Richard,

The LSD most dfinitely does work! If it worked any better, the rear would be swinging out even faster instead of spinning the inside tire. It is MUCH better with the bar on softest, rather than second to stiffest mind you. Plus, the car can power slide, even whith dead stock suspension, where as the GTV6 and Milano 2.5 just make bad smells.

[slyalfa]

"What link are you talking about?
sway bar?" yes. the part that ties the bar to the de-Dion. I had both break over time. I welded the left one when it busted. and changed out the right one when it busted some time later. With some thick steel and some balls on each end.

as for wheel I do not quite understand that part. I use the spokes as referance. and I only let it go say a 1/4 to 1/2. my fingers stop it when the spoke come around. I try not to let it get too far out..... but in a different car (68 crona) way back on ice etc I could let it go and the wheel would whip back and forth at a wicked rate and the car woud snap back under control. and I would grab it after it stoped moveing and the car was going stright again. on that car it was like magic. go off spinning after hitting some ice let go and the car would snap back in a instant. never had the Milano spinning so I have not seen if it will recover the same way.
I seem to be able to catch the Milano every time the back starts to come around.
and do not see much ice any more where I live now.