Why does a 164 feel faster then a Milano Verde?

[redbaron]

I agree with Joe, the 164 shifts and revs much nicer and gives a better impression even though it is a bit slower. Those of us here with both 164s and milano/gtv's can attest how much quicker our cars could be if we could shift faster with fewer grinds. That was probably the first thing I noticed about the 164 after years in the GTV6, the tranny was just sex in comparison...

[kredden]

Don,

I'm thinking very seriously about taking on a Megasquirt project this winter as well for my Verde. Let's keep in touch if we both actually get going on it.

Kevin

[Murray]

Guys if you want to go the next step with Megasquirt come over and visit us at www.alfagtv6.com
A bunch of us have done this with considerable success.
I've been running a MSII on my 2.5L GTV6 all year and am very pleased with the results.Haven't dyno'd it yet but would guesstimate +10 hp.and so far I've left the ignition side of the equation alone.

[sainato59]

I was just wondering..

About how much money is needed to convert over to the Mega Squirt?

Thanks

[BRUCE]

The principle reason seems to be the very high gearing of the 3.0 litre car.

[Hit an Apex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sainato59 I was just wondering.. About how much money is needed to convert over to the Mega Squirt? Thanks

[Hit an Apex]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant I'm looking to switch to Motronic for this very reason. The Verde just plain feels slow, even though it beats a 2.5 milano every time to 60 and on. The gears are SO long, and more importantly, the gap SO large from gear to gear, that the car isn't in its powerband for very long.

[Grant]

Why on earth would you bother with Megasquirt when a factory solution is right under your nose, sir? Let's not forget, once I'm done with the Motronic conversion, I will have a crank angle timing wheel and sensor all hooked up from the conversion so I will be ready for megasquirt fuel and spark once I get a hook-up on dyno time. So, you can see the swap will be very easy. I also want the 164 long intake runners for driveability, and the Motronic seems to run VERY well with this setup. That's why.

2.5 gold might be faster up to 45 mph or so (that's what I noticed) but from then on the Verde is gone. And once the Motronic and 4.1 rear end are installed...

Even if the driver is FAR better in the 2.5, the Verde is still going to pass it sooner or later--even in stock form. I own both, and have raced side-by side several times so this is my emperical evidence, take it or leave it.
I think the gold sounds way better while it loses however

[SamW]

I have GTed Verde, and I can say it feels every bit as fast or faster in the lower gears than my 86 GTV6 w/ 4.10. I like the taller gears because of the less shifts to get to 60-80mph and the added power & torque make up the difference. I think I would go MS before I went for a 4.10 although I know why a 4.10 would be better for the track.

[DonBeeson]

Kredden I will keep on touch with you when I start this project, we will probably have the same hardships everyone at alfagtv6.com went through.

Murray, I've read through the whole megasquirt project two or three times on alfagtv6.com and I feel its a project I can take on. I will be using my account on there if I have a few problems or what not (im sure it'll happen.)

Grant, I agree with you totally on the ability to use VEMS, if I get megasquirt running well, I'm probably going to do VEMS on my project. Also although the intake runners help better than the stock milano setup, buying a greg gordon cold air intake with no l-jet AFM gauge will surely help out on power production.

Lastly, it is very true that the gearing in the verde is way too high so i've got a question and an answer. First, everyone should get ahold of platinum boxes, they are going to be the really rare boxes that everyone pays money for in the US anyways. Second, how much on the very top end does the Verde lose with the platinum box? I know its geared differently, but the Verde also had more power in stock form, so how big of a difference does it make, 15 MPH?

Also if i'm able to get my hands on another verde (im working on it ) then i'll swap in my platinum box to that one, and have left the power portion of my verde stock, and do a bit of a race and tell you guys how big of a difference there is.

[Giorgio68]

One of the problem on the Verde is the factory exhaust system, you can start with free flow after market exhaust like Stebro some difference there. I can see the difference between my GTV6 and Verde, the 2.5L is much more reving engine but short, it makes you feel the car is going faster but its not, the 2.5L engine is more enjoyable when driving in the city verses the Verde. On my GTV6 I am frequently changing gear, on the Verde the opposite most of the time I am going on second gear comfortably.
Aslo remember the V6 engine was first introduced as 2.5L on Alfa6 and everything was based on that, in my opinion the 2.5L is a better balanced engine and Alfa had lots of experience on that eventhough the engine was designed in 72 then put aside. and the easiest way for them to make the 3.0L based on 2.5L when they tried to raise the HP on the 164S thats when problem started with the oil burning.

Giorgio

[slyalfa]

I think the timing is a biggy I am still playing with it but that seems to have made a big change to me. when I first put in the S in my car I did notice a lot more low-end but after playing with a lot of different timmings the best seems to be a very small ramp but starting out at like 20° then it started to come alive.
the stock timming seems to be way retared for the low to mid RPMs and that kills the low end.
even with the tall gears if I am in 1st going along and just punch it I will smoke the tires now.

[jontg428]

He, I think the oil burning problem afflicts most of the 12V motors! Mine drinks its castrol gtx at the rate of a quart every thousand miles or so, and this is considered normal! The 24V motors, on the otherhand, hardly burn any oil, and make more power to boot.

[Giorgio68]

Quote:

Originally Posted by jontg428 He, I think the oil burning problem afflicts most of the 12V motors! Mine drinks its castrol gtx at the rate of a quart every thousand miles or so, and this is considered normal! The 24V motors, on the otherhand, hardly burn any oil, and make more power to boot.

[DanW]

As for the 164's handling performance, all I can say is that it benefits tremendously from a few changes, such as wheels, rubber, alignment and upgraded suspension. My 164L (manual) is incapable of full power because of its dire need for a rebuild. (I also failed emissions inspection today in 2 of 3 categories, almost certainly due to the underlying reasons for a rebuild) Anyway, I just added a set of Koni Performance Adjustable struts on the rear only. Jason was very helpful in obtaining them and answering a lot of questions, so props to him. Even though the rear outshines the stock front, the car is a new machine in the corners. The softest setting on the Koni is more firm than the std Alfa gear, so I figured it would induce some push to the unchanged front. Well, perhaps it should or even does a bit but any detriment is overcome by the greater grip overall, even on pavement still slippery from a light shower.

Tuning can do a lot to reduce the negative handling tendencies of mass and front wheel drive. Then again, I sat in a new Lotus ExigeS (turbo'd) and was reminded that, in the end, Colin Chapman and his physics still apply!

-Dan