Braking Power

[alfafred]

Quote:

Originally posted by 75evo Ricer shops also sell the stuff. The fittings on Honda's are metric and they, as you know, have a large aftermarket presence.

[BigSwede]

I got Goodridge hoses from Demon Tweeks on my car too, works perfectly. Fairly cheap too.

If you get custom made braided, be sure to get teflon hoses and not rubber ones, otherwise it will be like fitting standard parts.

[nizam]

Well, I wouldn't say Earl's fittings are "Honda" fittings. Earls makes fittings for a lot of things, really. From factory equipment to battleships. No, I wouldn't worry about "fast and furious" stuff on your car.

If it works, it works. If you view "fast and furious" parts as being too good for your car, stay away from Brembo, Wilwood, StopTech etc.

Now, if I find you with a "Type R" sticker ... THEN ... you're in for a beating! Earl's brake fittings are truly good fittings and will fit on any application.

[JoeCab]

I find Centerline's Carbon Metallic pads, drilled/slotted rotors, and braided lines work just fine for me. As long as I bleed the fluid each track day, I have a rock hard pedal and good bite.

Joe

[nikosd]

Well,

first

I 'd like to pinpoint that different versions of the 75 have completely different brake setups as far as servo assistance & ABS capability is concerned.

By far the worst version concerning its braking ability, especially combined with its power, torque and accelaration is the turbo. To add "insult to injury" (just joking !) the turbine heat is responsible for heating up fluid reservoir and deteriorating even more the whole thing.

second

I might add that sometimes - main times in my opinion - road driving can be more demanding that racing (at amateur level I suppose). Why ? here are some reasons...

- ever tried to stop efficiently the car with 4 passengers added ? that's 4x75=300kg of extra weight ! the car is completely transformed ! no way you can get close to this in racing terms.

- race tracks usualy don't have downward slopes, while real life roads do ! just try driving fast on a 15 minute downhill drive and your worst nightmares can become true.

- road going pads have to perform well both when cold and hot - while for race pads, only hot will do. That compromise immediately results in relatively poor performance for road pads. Offcourse, even if that wasn't the case, high pad and disk wear that is acceptable for racing is not acceptable for road.

Add the three reasons at the same time and you might end with a dangerous mix in a car that is underpowered in brakes.

Really now, time is passing and by today's standards, the 75 doesn't have enough brakes. For it's time they might have been ok. (cars with drums all around where still on the roads then !)

To conclude, I think that Alfa designers and mechanics have done one of their few miss-calculations in this domain, cause otherwise the car still stands up from the rest just fine - in an engineering point of view.

P.S. Tried tarox grooved disks, tarox pads, front/rear bias regulator, steel braided hoses to my turbo. All did improve a little but still not satisifed.

Nick

[BigSwede]

Why do you think that the 75t has worse brakes then a 3.0 without ABS? Same crap as far as I'm concerned (), exactly the same stuff that goes on the TS and 2.5. Is there different servos? On what model?

Street worse then the track??
I don't know how you drive but you have to have a pretty steep downhill run to be even close to what you have on a track. Maybe if you do ten 160 Km/h-0 stops back to back your close.

[genius]

(Deep breath!!)...Assuming that the same car is driven and that the road and track seal have a similar friction value and that braking effeciency of both vehicles is 100% then you are going to have similar brake performance between a car driven on a road at 50mph with 4 people @aprox 1600kg and a car driven at 100mph on the track @ aprox 1300kg. The difference in vehicles with a gross weight under approximately 2000kg is negligible. ..(I know that sounds a little strange but ask NEWTON...he wrote the principal). The only problem is the speed of heat build-up...allowing a pad to exceed its optimal operating temperature will cause fade wherever you drive...



In the spirit of Christmas however....may I suggest that we all drive a little slower on the road when we have passangers...less heat build-up and consequently less brake fade means fewer crashes.

My suggestion for the best road/track-day set up is 330mm AP Racing groved rotors and AP callipers and a good (DOT 4 non silicon) fluid. (330mm rotors will fit under some 16" wheels so I'm informed but I haven't tried it...YET):

[alfafred]

Quote:

Originally posted by genius (Deep breath!!)...Assuming that the same car is driven and that the road and track seal have a similar friction value and that braking effeciency of both vehicles is 100% then you are going to have similar brake performance between a car driven on a road at 50mph with 4 people @aprox 1600kg and a car driven at 100mph on the track @ aprox 1300kg. The difference in vehicles with a gross weight under approximately 2000kg is negligible. ..(I know that sounds a little strange but ask NEWTON...he wrote the principal). The only problem is the speed of heat build-up...allowing a pad to exceed its optimal operating temperature will cause fade wherever you drive... In the spirit of Christmas however....may I suggest that we all drive a little slower on the road when we have passangers...less heat build-up and consequently less brake fade means fewer crashes. My suggestion for the best road/track-day set up is 330mm AP Racing groved rotors and AP callipers and a good (DOT 4 non silicon) fluid. (330mm rotors will fit under some 16" wheels so I'm informed but I haven't tried it...YET):

[JoeCab]

I believe that the main problem with 75/Milano brakes is not the design or sizing of the components, but heat build up in the REAR brakes. They are both sheltered from cooling air and close to the exhaust.

[nikosd]

I think all remarks made are true - and we are approaching the heart of the matter.

as I read all comments I get the feeling that except the rear brakes inherent problem of the 75 (which is more serious in racing), pads also play a major role in braking. It seems that (as "75 Experience" TS cars show) with race pads you can counteract the otherwise poor performance.

the 2.5 and 3.0 look like they have the same servos, but TS has different, turbo has different and back pressure of all motors is different too. I suspect that the 1.8 turbo has less backpressure than all the others.

I 'd also aggree that truly, according to newton's law, speed is a more crucial factor (^2) than mass carried when braking, but elevated speeds are also possible on road, in a downward slope where you carry 4 people and don't have the right pads. And offcourse it is not negligable to carry 400 kg more in your car - it's 30% more weight and more energy needed for stopping ! I guess we all feel it when we are driving the 75 loaded for vacations !

Offcourse, in track you 'll need to brake hard several times continuously, but it doesn't change the demands in crude stopping power (friction of pads, pressure of calipers, diameter of disks) over one single stoping manoeuver. Sustaining and repeating such manoeuvers in track has to be solved by cooling and heat dissipation which is another issue (which makes more serious the matter of the rear brakes not efficient cooling).

In my opinion braking of the 75 isn't enough, not with hot but also not with cool brakes, so heat dissipation and cooling are not my main problems.

And I guess I can't use race pads regularly on street ("75 experience" TS cars), that's not a permanent solution... or could it be...?

nick

P.S. By the way - does anybody know which brand of pads where the cars delivered with from factory ?

[genius]

Nick

If you want to try a good compromise pad, I used to run Mintex M1155's and found them to be really good (although on a much lighter car).

I bought my last set a couple of years ago and I think that the compound may have been changed ( to M1166) so some investigation will be necessary...but they are well worth a look.

Unfortunately they do take a bit of "bedding in" or they'll squeel for months (& months)...I eventually put them on a bench and used a welding torch to get enough heat into them....

Good luck