Roxanne - budget milano/75 track car

[junglejustice]

Jes, maybe you need a heat-shield for the wheel-bearings...

[speedyspaghetti]

Jes--- I have a question regarding your cornering grip vis-a-vis the other cars that you are on track with. Are you running with Gtvs and other earlier cars? How does your speed compare to those cars through the corner. Any thoughts related to the comparison between your car and the earlier cars (or other Milanos with different suspension setups) would be appreciated.

SS

[AR4me]

Most of the 105 GTVs that I'm on track with run 205 width tires, which I have been doing so far as well. With that the 105 GTVs are typically faster in tight turns where it is down to pure lateral grip. I believe this is due to me typically carrying an extra 500 lbs. In longer sweeper like turns I would say my car is faster, which is probably due to better stability and an edge in power (on some GTVs). I'm planning/hoping to fit 225 width tires for next race - February. Hopefully, that will offset the extra weight and allow an increase in cornering speed.

At our last event some weeks ago I got a chance to run an older set of Hoosiers vs. a not quite as old set of Nitto NT01s. My feeling was that turn-in and grip was significantly better with the Nittos. The difference in lap times were as much as 2 sec. After switching back to the Nittos the lap-times came back down. A big factor was the age of the Hoosiers. Regardless, the Nittos seem to hold up very well and last a long time. I'm sure grip is better and lap times lower with new Hoosiers, but that is an expensive proposition.

In terms of suspension I would like to try a slightly softer setup and then use drop spindles up front - some day maybe.

I would also suggest to use the cage better to strengthen the chassis. Currently, the car, due to its budget, has a bolt-in Autopower cage. I think a a true welded-in cage also addressing chassis flex would be a nice improvement.

Regardless, the car has proved fun and reliable to drive.

Jes

[speedyspaghetti]

Thanks for the info. I am building a budget Milano ($500) Verde with RS suspension and am hopefully going to get on track before end of year.
I have used Kumhos, Hoosiers, and Yoko Advans on my previous trackcars. In my experience a newer set of Hoosiers or Kumhos are good for 2 seconds +- at Road Atlanta over a Toyo or Nitto or other(1:45 lap). The guys that I talk to that run Nittos are very happy with the price/performance/longevity that they get.
How many track days are you getting out of the Nittos? Thanks!!!

[Grant]

Jes,

Why did you pick 205's in the first place? Was there not enough clearance? I don't have enough grip with 225/45/16 on my car as it is, and I just wish I could find 235's in the right aspect ratio.

[AR4me]

The Nittos have lasted something like 5 full race weekends. They are on their last legs, but grip has not yet fallen off, seriously. I also feel that they remain more consistent through a 12+ lap race while I feel Hoosiers start to fall off after maybe 5 laps. Of course, during those first 5 laps they are great if they are newish. Anyway, I will be running Nittos in the future.

Grant, the 205 is about the max that will fit without some surgery. Time to roll fenders... and figure out alternative way to mount the Evo flares.

Marco was running 275 on his 24v GTV6 at Buttonwillow

Jes

[Grant]

O crap, did he say if his times improved a lot? Hoosiers?

I was going to try to mount Verde flares on my verde and cut away some of the inner metal of the fender...rivet the corners at the bottom, and use 3M automotive tape. Then shave the Verde flare from the inside (where it gets wide and is riveted to the metal part of the fender...if that makes any sense). I should be able to clear 225's still with even less offset...wider track.

Hope to see you at Buttonwillow or Streets of Willow sometime. I haven't driven my Verde pretty much since last year at Buttonwillow. Would like to take it out again.

[chefricardo]

Please tell me more about the New Buick ABS pump+accumulator. Specifics on model and price please.

Any difficulty to install it?

Thanks.

email: chefricardo@proedit.com

[Alfar7]

Jes, I havent been following this thread, but from pics of the deDion tubes they are not going to maintain camber settings as they flex under load.
FYI, Some time ago I posted pics of reinforced deDion and unless you do similar mod then it will not be stable.
As of June pics saved in my computer were lost.

Car will handle & turn in much better with zero toe in on front. If you are using my dropped spindles with Ackerman mods, the toe increases are significant on turn in.

[AR4me]

Grant,
I have no doubt Hoosiers are faster when newish, but the problem is the cost if you have to replace frequently.

Richard,
Yes, I saw your pics of Dedion reinforcement in another thread, some time ago. I'm hoping to do that on the other race car that will use the drop spindles you made, the carbon fiber driveshaft, the close ratio gearbox with the nice clutch setup, the in-car "straight" shift linkage from you, true and fully adjustable race coil-over setup from Ron, outboard AP racing brake conversion from GiroDisc, and of course the big-bore 24v from Dawie. I'm working with someone locally to possibly put adjustable camber on the Dedion with increased track for that car (at which point I hope to reinforce it), as well as front suspension components increasing track and ease of adjusting camber.

The car in this thread is generally made from stock components and is serving duty until I can get the other car completed (which is taking me forever due to a million other things). But, I have been comtemplating putting the drop spindles on this car, and get another set for the not-so-budget car. I will try zero front toe-in.

Regarding Buick ABS components please serach the Milano section, there should be quote a few threads kicking around.

Jes

[Grant]

Sorry, I was asking if he was using 275 width hoosiers. It's an unusual width for 16 or 17 inch tires in the correct aspect ratio.

[AR4me]

Yes, 275 width Hoosiers on custom 15" wheels if I recall correctly. With his oldish 205 I could kind of hang with him, but with the 275 width new Hoosiers he was something like 7 sec a lap faster Bye-bye...
Jes

[75evo]

Jes,

You can run 225/45/16 (A048 or R888) or 225/40/17 (only hoosier have this size). Or try 235/40/17 (this would be REALLY close, would probably rub). I've run 225/50/16 Kumho Victoracers and it rubs a little. I've run 215/45/17 too (rubs a little, but not too bad), the NT01 comes in this size. I think if you really have to switch sizes just go with 235/40/17 and get some fender work, would be worth the trouble then.

But aren't you sticking to 205/40/17 for points/classification reason?

[AR4me]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75evo But aren't you sticking to 205/40/17 for points/classification reason?

[GregSef]

Regarding de Dion tubes flexing under load. I modified a GTV6 and my Lemons Milano tubes in nearly the same way you did in this thread. I rehearsed the Milano modification on a spare GTV6 assembly. Using a longacre digital camber gauge the static unloaded negative camber I set the tube for (-2.0*) After installing the assembly it changed to between _2.1* and -2.2* (-.15*)This was strictly with the corner weight on the tire. I was a little concerned with this so I loaded about 800 pounds into the trunk while measuring the change in camber. It had virtually no change. Firmed up to -2.2* , reality check here remember we are talking tenths and hundreds of a degree here.

Cornering loads are huge so maybe my testing is a little weak, but cornering loads are also vector loads on the deDion so the load path is neither vertical or horizontal. And then there are torsional loads which my testing completly ignored.

That being said given the opportunity I would add stiffening to the deDion tubes, they are pretty strong but extremley thin.

Adjustable Camber, wow, . I thought I remember somewhere on the BB there are some pictures of this?

What do you think about a truss like reinforcement?

Any pictures or info besides urban legends of a deDion tube failing?

Some friends think I would have been better off with -1.5" camber in the rear of the Milano. But the car did really well at Nelson Ledges in Ohio. The change in grip was very noticable.

Greg