Roxanne - budget milano/75 track car

[AR4me]

Dave,
The options for the distributor are:
1. convert the the 164S engine to Milano distributor. This may appear the cleanest solution, BUT I really am not to thrilled about effectively lowering the volume (=pressure) from the oil pump. Alfa raised the output of the oil pump in the 164 version, possibly for a reason. Then again, as Nizam says, he has been running his engine like that for a while. Though, many of us have seen how low the oil pressure gets during hard track time in hot weather. You also have to set the adjustable Milano distributor at a "good" position and fix it = no advance from it - all doable.
2. leave the 164S distributor and oil pump drive as is and modify the firewall to allow it to clear. If it was a street car, this would probably not work, but with a race car, why not? At this point this seems the best way to me.

75evo,
The firewall would be rewelded, or have a bolted on "door" - should not affect safety. If possible we may just push the buldge back a bit (and not even cut and reweld).

Scott,
It will be MIG. For a street car I would not bother, but for a race car it adds stiffness. You probably should note that you may be altering properties of crumble zones, etc. - if Alfa considered things like that back in the days with the 75...

Jes

[junglejustice]

Back to an older topic in this thread...! (You guys may wan to read this...)

http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/show...d=1#post319860

[junglejustice]

Jes, check out our stitch-welding next door on my 3.7...

Scott - this helped for sure! I mean, yes - these are monster roll-cages (but still), Jes' 3.7 (after seam-welding the entire engine-bay) - you could jack the entire front of the car STRAIGHT up in the air under one tire...

It was amazing! So much so that we decided that stitch-welding should be enough...

I did add some extra braces at the base of the V between the up-rights and do some additional stitch-welding along the sub-frame...

[nizam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AR4me Alfa raised the output of the oil pump in the 164 version, possibly for a reason. Then again, as Nizam says, he has been running his engine like that for a while. Though, many of us have seen how low the oil pressure gets during hard track time in hot weather.

[DaveH]

Thanks Jes,

Now I understand a wee bit more.

When you mod the firewall, can you do it in such a way that you create an 'inverse' bulge of what you have? Just for the sake of structural integrity. I know you're not going to run coilovers, due to the points rules. But: there will still be some load transferred to the firewall from the shock mounts and also from torsional loading of the chassis (the cage may mostly solve that).

Weakening the A-pillar probably won't matter too much...

If the 'inverse' bulge can be done, can you avoid the need for an access door?

Keep it up!

Dave

[AR4me]

Quote:

If the 'inverse' bulge can be done, can you avoid the need for an access door?

[AR4me]

This is what it looks like up under the dash - ample of space. This is usually taken up by the ventilation unit, now, completely empty. I think the buldge is as much to allow space for the ventilation unit as for strength. The pic is taken from the passenger side foot-well looking up. You can just see part the pedals to the right.
Jes

[slyalfa]

"Alfa raised the output of the oil pump in the 164 version, " I say BS.
the parts inside are the same size. I know as I use the inside parts of the 164 pump and the casing of the Milano pump. and I say the best thing for the dizzy it toss it. COPs run great.

see http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-management/26315-vems-install-my-verde.html

[AR4me]

Yes, the internals of the oil pump are the same (I think), BUT the gearing is different giving it higher output. This is not fiction. If you put the Milano alternator on a 164 oil pump drive the distributor will spin too fast.

As much as I like coil packs, I cannot run coil packs since it would require aftermarket engine management system which would bump the car yet another class, for practically no gain. Furthermore, the idea is to get factory reliability!

Anyway, a few pics of the front of the engine coming together in Milano style: new waterpump (164 with sepentine pulley) + the Milano thermostat stack, all pulleys remounted. The tiny Denso alternator will need a serpentine pulley and probably a custom bracket. I will relocate it from the 164 location to the Milano location. Before re-using the Milano thermostat stack I sanded all the water outlets in order to get rid of build-up and pitting. I plan to move the ECU water temp sensor over as I'm not quite sure the L-Jet Milano and Motronic 164 sensors have identical specs.

BTW, I'm quite impressed by how advanced the 164S engine came from the factory:
- oil to coolant heat exchanger
- piston oil squirters
- water cooled throttle body!

Jes

[slyalfa]

I like the
- oil to coolant heat exchanger
I think that helps a lot. in 2 ways bringing the oil temp up fast on warmup (where most of the wear happens)
and cooling.
could you use a different ECU just for the coils and not get a point hit??

I will have to check the pump ratio I know a normal 164 is the same speed. as the gears are also the same. but the S had a different gear set. At the time I asked but all I got was that the should be matched to the gear in the head. If it is a different ratio it would only be in the S or after a different year (after the piston oil squirters were added?)
when I have a chance I will mark my gear and see if ir runs faster then ½ crank speed.

[nizam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AR4me I plan to move the ECU water temp sensor over as I'm not quite sure the L-Jet Milano and Motronic 164 sensors have identical specs.

[slyalfa]

the oil to coolant heat exchanger is feed off a nipple that goes where the thermo-time switch in on the Milano

[AR4me]

So, Colin stopped by tonight and did some welding. The engine bay is now seam welded to the extent we planned. Ses pics.

I'll just leave the unused Milano sensors as plugs.

Jes

[AR4me]

And then, a deep breath, fire up the angle grinder, and cut. We did a lot of measurements first. This is a first best estimate of the space needed for the distributor. When the engine has the Milano sump on, but without bell housing, we will lower it in and do any additional trimming. Once we are happy with the fit, we will pull the engine out and well a box on the opening in the firewall, allowing space for servicing the distributor.
Jes

[75evo]

How will this effect the firewall stiffness? I'm assuming the firewall has to be somewhat stiff to withstand the pedal assembly pressure?