2nd 3.7 Litre 24 Valve Milano Project!

[junglejustice]

Thanks Richard, your gearbox work and 5.5 inch disc-work is well known - you and I have actually spoken on occasion - John - here in Seattle...

Andrew Garcia of Garcia Alfa Racing in Houston has done a few boxes for us now with good success and he is also the one setting up these two boxes for the 3.7s... We are doing extensive gear-lightening (cross drilled AND back-cut - including reverse and even some on the little reverse-idler gear), as well as lightened fly-wheels (about 25%) and competition clutches. Then the "usual" 50% lockup - 4-disc LSD, correct shimming etc etc.

I long for one of your rear flywheels and clutch setups but the $$$ are an issue.

Yeah - I have looked at a direct-line shifter through the rear bulkhead - at the base behind the seats - but it seems difficult to do with our LHD cars! (In South Africa there are cars modified this way because of the RHD position and you can easily "steal" on the "passenger" side of a race car.

BTW; Did you ever finish this "GT" car - I heard about it somewhere, but never saw it run...

Any way, thanks - yeah - I would be interested in some help here, but I first need to peak underneath a car with driveshaft installed to get some context before I can continue this quest.

Precision in the selector is a concern and from reading the post you will see that shifter position is 30-40% of what I am trying to improve! For starters I extended the tip of the shifter, but I have looked at cutting that back down and then lengthening it from the base (the thicker end, for the top part to move up!)

I want it at that 3-4 o'clock position just off to the right of the steering wheel and I have considered making it straight, but I was not sure of the advantages/disadvantages to doing this (such as maybe ramming the shifter in to the dash, or having to reach for it or something, so I was just going to start here.)

Yeah - I realized today what that "cup" was that you were referring too - I can cut that off for starters - will do that today, since the rubber boot will no longer fit there any way! I was also eyeing those little u-joint "crosses" on my steering knuckle that I have to modify to fit the 2.1 turns lock-to-lock modified Alfetta steering rack - just yesterday - and wondering how one of those could be employed to serve my needs as they apply to shifting mods!

Do you have a picture of that end? Any pics from some of your other "users" would be greatly appreciated - thanks! In a nut-shell - what would you charge some of us for a complete shifter to gearbox conversion (or at the very least - the modified pieces to complete this) on a track/race car? How much of that would be applicable to a street car?

[Craig]

G'Day JJ,

There is no point in cutting the boot mount lip (cup) off on the Milano shifter at this point as the current limitation in both the fore/aft and left/right motion is the plastic insert holding the ball pivot up. Even with this removed, the limiting factor becomes the top flange of the mount.

Tell me the dimensions of your modified lever and I will produce a new drawing.
I will need at least the diameter of your extension and the distance between the center of the pivot ball and the center of the bush.

Also I suggest you try to measure the angles of rotation needed to select 1st/2nd and 5th/rev both at the gearbox selector shaft and at the shifter rod connection to the isostatic mechanism.

Also measure the amount of movement required in the fore/aft direction at the same points.

[junglejustice]

Will do!

So, I figured that a little bit EVERY day (no matter how small), will keep things progressing in this mission! (Picked up all sorts of minor NOS parts from AoT today - new pedal rubbers, clutch-master etc etc...)

My 26mm poly center mount bushes came in (to install the 4-way adjustable RSR rear bar!) Here's a shot with the bar in and the adjustable RSRacing rear shocks hanging!

Also, the single Lemforder LCA ball-joint that I was waiting on from Ereminas came in; managed to press it in and install the LCA and RSR coil-over, so now the left-side is done too!

Still waiting on the Alfetta inner tie-rods from DiFatta Bros. or the rack would be installed too! (I wanna get that engine in!)

[junglejustice]

Thanks Richard; yeah - I was talking about the GTR car - I want to see that thing run! That project has been going on for some time now - what is the projected finish date? What body are you doing on it?

Any way - so I had a chance to take a quick look underneath another Milano tonight; the shifter (if lengthened at the bottom) DOES NOT hit the drive-shaft! As mentioned, that reduction in the drive-shaft diameter as well as the natural drive-line kink is there to facilitate the shifter NEXT to it.

It would actually be fine however, what WOULD be a problem is the shift-rod that runs to the back. Pushing it lower (along with the lower pivot-point) will push it right down on to the top of the middle cross-member right there... Me thinks that by placing a slight bend in that long rod, I could regain some of that clearance again, but I am going to have to still limit myself to about 1/2 and inch, to an inch or so in increase to that lower-rod on the shifter (and from what I read - that will be plenty enough!)

[junglejustice]

So, no other pictures tonight, but got much done in terms of organization and coordination with the rebuild of Jes' 3.7 simultaneously with the completion of mine!

Pulled the brake-line Ts off of two extra transaxles that I have sitting here (need one for the front and one for the rear on the new GiroDisc brake conversion running the dual master setup) - already have two for Jes from when that car was running.

As a side-note; I got Jes a parts-shelf now too - right above mine - and helped G2 lay-out all of his parts to see what still needs to be ordered/rebuilt/manufactured/installed or otherwise cleaned-up etc. Made a parts-list and a plan - that project is now moving forward too!

Removed the bumper-shocks on his car with those stupid pins sticking out of them, (because if I was going to ram my knee-caps/shins in to them one more time, there was bound to be a second fire! ) Removed his steering wheel for replacement and steering-column for service.

On mine, we pulled down Jes' pedal box with the adjustable bias-bar conversion to see what needed to be replicated to complete mine and repair his! Discussed the brake-lines with the shop resource that will be (re)doing those for both of us and started pulling parts! We'll order brake masters tomorrow (likely Girlings again) and just as soon as the new lines are done and my inner tie-rods are here and installed, I can drop my motor in!

Jes' motor (now built to the same spec as my motor), is also dyno'ed and completed - ready to be shipped back! Exciting times!

[Grant]

JJ,

Are you doing anything in the way of roll-center adjustment?

[junglejustice]

The given roll-center for any given car is what it is.... You can only compensate through the most optimal suspension setup for that particular application...

[Grant]

I've seen others, and I'm sure you have too, relocate the watt's center linkage lower.

Up front, upside down ball joints, custom A-arms, or drop spindles were used. Don't think this is worth the time to do? I'm just curious.

[junglejustice]

Nah... PITA - for SURE!

Ball-joint seats in the spindle to the LCA and to the UCA are tapered - machining them open will require sourcing custom pieces and modifying ALL of it - to what gain...?

Nah - spend the money on more driver training...

Drove Chucks GTV6 today (with about 270 24 valve 3.0 horses), full RSR suspension, full G2 brake setup and I have to tell you - it would take me YEARS to out-drive THAT car - leave alone my full-cage full-bore monster... Maybe the Watts-part of it, but for now the added negative camber and toe/tow-in modifications to the DeDion and out-board brake mods and 105 castor-rod conversion and tube-frame nature of the cage and mega-horsepower engine and eliminating the torsion bars will be plenty of improvement over the average Milano/75 out there...

[Grant]

I think having camber gain under hard cornering would be good for a race car too.

It's not just increasing your lap time by having the front geometry better...you're looking at better tire-wear and better grip on bumpy parts of the pavement. I'm sitll not saying whether it's worth the time and money or not, I'm just saying that I don't think it's an insignificant factor.

I've got a few pictures of 75evo and Nizam taking the same turn on Laguna Seca. 75evo's car has noticeable positive camber and Nizam's car has negative camber. I personally don't know this, but I suspect that Nizam's car has more potential to grip up front beacuse of his drop spindles. Is it really making the car go aroudn the track any faster? I'm not sure, but that's what I'm trying to figure out.

[nizam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grant I've got a few pictures of 75evo and Nizam taking the same turn on Laguna Seca. 75evo's car has noticeable positive camber and Nizam's car has negative camber. I personally don't know this, but I suspect that Nizam's car has more potential to grip up front beacuse of his drop spindles. Is it really making the car go aroudn the track any faster? I'm not sure, but that's what I'm trying to figure out.

[Potenziato]

Sorry to hijack the post, but I'm not convinced that drop spindles are the Holy Grail to handling. I've driven two cars with two identical suspensions and I really can't say that the spindles impressed me that much.

The RS kit was designed without them and it works better with stock spindles. A really good set of tires will make more difference per $ than than the spindles.

[Grant]

See, I was looking for some emperical evidence that Louis is putting forth here.

I'll state the obvious here Nizam, and point out that 75evo has some high lift cams and a pretty good weight advantage I think, to offset whatever gain the drop spindles may or may not give you.

But I think I'll give you a call some time tomorrow or so Nizam, I want to know what kind of alignment you are running.

Louis, how much camber was your red car running, and how much camber is the 24V running (static camber)?

One other thing is, when you have a car with such high wheel rates such as Jon's race car and even your RS kit with really stiff springs, the advantage of the drop spindles becomes less and less, if I'm understanding how the drop spindle is supposed to work. I think that when you have very little body roll, you won't have to worry about camber gain or geometry much at all. You can even make a VW bug with swing axles grip like glue, given a high enough spring rate. A good example would be Formula Vee, that venerable race series using a bug engine and chassis...an unlikely donor for a race car no doubt, but if you make the wheel rates high enough, it doesn't really matter what kind of suspension you are using as long as you are on smooth pavement.

I'm particularly interested in this whole drop spindle thing because since my wheel rates are really low, I do get a lot of body roll when I corner hard (as in 190lb front torsion bars, and 143 lb rear springs). I haven't seen a good picture of my car cornering hard (when I'm not show boating with a handful of opposite lock that is) but I'd bet i've got tons of positive camber on the front end. This obviously is going to wear the outside edge of my tires a lot and give me less grip up front, where I need it the most. I could potentially get my rear end to rotate by stiffening the rear sway bar, but that's just decreasing my car's overall grip even more.

But is all of this worth the hassle? I don't know. It would force me to use 16 inch or larger wheels, where I'd prefer to be running with a 15X7 or something, and it would require me to mess around with the 27.3mm torsion bars, which was something I was hoping to never have to do again.

I should probably start another thread, but if you don't mind Jon, I think this topic is going to die soon anyways.

[nizam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potenziato I've driven two cars with two identical suspensions and I really can't say that the spindles impressed me that much.

[Potenziato]

I am just saying with the RS kit it doesn't work. Ron didn't design the kit with spindles. If you change the spindles, you need different spring rates and shock valving. With firmer springs and more static camber I would say that camber gain would have less effect.

I'm sure the Beninca kit the spindles are part of a package. Beninca designed his kit with spindles and roll center changes. If I remember correctly, the Beninca kit use the stock front sway bar and only a larger rear bar. These two systems are both great but have quite a few differences in implementation. I don't think picking the best of each will work well.

I'm tired of trying to out design the designer. The problem with your a la carte method Grant is that you have way too many variables to deal with. It can work, but it is through luck or constant perseverance. That is why the suspension packages are expensive. You are paying Ron Simmons or Beninca for there R & D time which is probably in the hundreds of hours. I used to wonder why tuners like ABT or AC Schnitzer would charge quite abit more for there Koni or Bilsteins. Now I know why.