07-09-2009, 09:27 AM
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New US-Based 24 Valve Twin Turbo Milano Project;
"We" are looking at building a local (US) effort 24 valve twin turbo Milano and to that end, we're looking for any and all suggestions related to the project (as planned...) I don't really want to get into the turbo versus S/C pros and cons, or cost versus simplicity, versus bang-for-the-buck arguments; 24 valve TT is what is on the table.
We would specifically like to hear suggestions on suppliers for custom-sized intercoolers, sourcing sectioned plumbing, or perhaps a local (Seattle-based) fabricator of turbo-installs who can make custom plumbing in-car. Also, information on turbo-types (roller-bearing turbos etc), inlet and exhaust sizing differences between the T-3 and T4 for example, opinions on the products available from Turbonetics (pricey), versus some of the Chinese-made turbos out there would be good...
Naturally, I have a strong relationship with Dawie at Glenwood in South Africa, so much of our primary direction will be drawn from him, but I want to hear what else is out there! Also, even something very basic and specific - like Turbo-Charging 101 - pop-offs/blow-offs/waste-gates - built-in or external canisters, electronic versus mechanical boost-control etc etc would be much appreciated.
For starters the goal is to build the project based on a standard 24 valve 164 motor to validate the direction. After some confidence in the concept, we will have a 9.5:1 compression 3.45 litre built with dished forged alminium-alloy pistons and forged steel chrome molly rods (just like some of the other big-bores that we have done with Dawie...)
For now though it will be the standard 10.0:1 domed piston motor from a stock 164 LS running a maximum of .5 to .6 BAR boost through a single 80mm throttle-body! Intake runners will be the standard 44mm GTA types with custom dual plenums.
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; Future 24v Projects; '06 Scion XB - Runs! 
Last edited by junglejustice; 07-09-2009 at 10:07 AM.
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07-09-2009, 10:22 AM
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Yea!!! JJ is back!
Quick question, what fuel system are you going to run? GoTech? Is this a street or track project?
I think the hardest part of the project is the plumbing under the hood, where to loacte the turbos, etc.
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07-09-2009, 12:17 PM
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I would say try to fit the turbos down low like Alfa did on the 2L V6. but use 2 the starter side might be hard. or fit them in front some how. ether way out of site. if there are over the heads it is just asking to have the car impounded if a cop ever looks under the hood. let alone getting it smogged.
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07-09-2009, 02:20 PM
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This is more for a potential off-street project, but in a car that would still have stock-street amenities.
Yes - GoTech Pro-X is the plan for the engine management system.
There's just no room down low on the sides with an alternator and a P/S pum etc. It also creates too much heat down there! Most of Dawie's SA twin turbo GTV6 projecs have the turbos forward and over the valve covers; this is likely the way that we would need to go on this car too.
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; Future 24v Projects; '06 Scion XB - Runs!
Last edited by junglejustice; 07-09-2009 at 02:28 PM.
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07-11-2009, 01:35 PM
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Hey,
I have just 1 simple question, what transmision do u have in mind...? cant be transaxle still with all that torque?
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07-11-2009, 03:37 PM
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by jim555
Hey, I have just 1 simple question, what transmision do u have in mind...? cant be transaxle still with all that torque?
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On just .5 to .6 BAR boost and only on a stock standard 10.0:1 compression 3.0 litre 24v, we are already WELL beyond my full-race 3.7 litre 12.0:1 motor that has over 400 horses at the crank! So, yeah - initially, maybe just a stock Verde box - they can take a nursed 350-400 horsepower motor, but later on - perhaps a front-mounted Getrag 6-speed setup like this...?
Especially once the setup is validated and we go to a built 9.5:1 3.45 litre motor and crank it up to 1 BAR (888 Nm torque at the wheels and around 522 Kw - that's what - 700 horses or so!?)
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; Future 24v Projects; '06 Scion XB - Runs!
Last edited by junglejustice; 07-11-2009 at 03:43 PM.
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07-11-2009, 08:27 PM
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WOW WHAT A BEAST, i just dont see how the hood of the car would close. for ideas i guess i would look into the late 90"s Maserati Ghibli bi turbo.
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07-12-2009, 10:16 AM
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Well, we were talking gearbox choices - hence the last picture...
As far as hood-clearance with the turbo setup, we'll have to fab-up a smaller version of the plenums- or the hood is going to have to look something like this...
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; Future 24v Projects; '06 Scion XB - Runs!
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07-15-2009, 06:17 PM
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Hi JJ,
Are you starting with a stock motor or are you building one with 10:1 pistons. If so why not just start with a low compression engine. Have you looked at what size turbos are being used in performance engines of half this size (half because you are using twin turbos). I recently bought 2 bosche bypass valves for my Maserati Biturbo and I would recommend these as they will flow alot of air. Its better to use bypass valves vs blow off valves because they have better performance in terms of keeping the turbos spooled and they are often handled better by Fuel injection systems.
Do you think that you can use the Gotech to handle the boost? have it actuate a solenoid at a certain PSI. The downsides of manual and cheap electronic boost controllers is that there is slight opening of the waste gates at boost below the threshold. The other problem is boost creep, meaning that it doesn't hold constant PSI after the waste gate has been opened.
Bob
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84 GTV6 - 3.0L, headers, Sport Rear springs, Bilstien Shocks, LSD
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07-15-2009, 08:25 PM
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For BB turbos I would recommend garrett gt2871r for a dual set-up you would not have much lag. for high hp with lag i would go with a 35 or 40r. For non BB turbos t3t4s or a big sc61. A local subaru/mitsubishi company is making a hybrid 16G turbo that is putting down great numbers.
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07-15-2009, 10:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by space
For BB turbos I would recommend garrett gt2871r for a dual set-up you would not have much lag.
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Garrett BB turbo's are my preferred choice .
If you could get the full potential out of a pair of GT2871r's, youd be pumping over 400RWKW. Unless you have a need for more KW, there is no need for turbo's bigger than that.
Having said that, your intended quite high static compression ratio has me wondering what sort of fuel be using and the cars intended purpose...... 
If it is planned to be a track car running any of the 'heavey' high octane race fuel or (better still  ) methanol, then possibly a move to the Garrett GT30 range would be better interms of turbo durabillity.
External wastegates aren't really necessary. Unless you require the system to run at very low boost pressure, the flow capacity of the newer Garrett turbo's should be plenty. Of course the GT30 type are only available withe wastegated housings from certain groups and they are typically based on the turbine housings from the Nissan R33 Skyline GTSt housings (.64 A/R ratio only). So GT30 type turbo's will require external gates.
Blow off valves are without a doupt the most over rated devices in the world! OK, maybe second to turbo timers. They serve a purpose but most of that purpose is more to do with emissions (reversion back thru a hotwire airflow meter) and to a degree durabillity (reversion thru a vane/trap door style AFM). Factory Bosch types (like what Greg use's on his SC kit) should suffice unless you simply must have some machined and anodised aluminium thing bolted to your intercooler pipes.
Aftermarket BOV manufacurers will tell you how important they are, but then that's marketing for you.
The F1 turbo cars didn't use them. Only the factory 1s were used on the Skyline GTRs and Cosworth Siera's during the Group A touring car era here in Oz.
Actual compressor damage from not running a blow off valve is highly unlikely. The only time it could possibly happen is if the turbo is pumping HUGE boost pressure and the additional pressure spike when the throttle is shut excedes the physical strength of the compressor wheel and it forces it to change shape and contact the compressor housing.
Lag master huge turbo's suck!
High static compression ratio with really high octane fuel (and good tuning) would help improve drivabillity a whole lot! Anti-lag will also help at the expence of turbo, manifold and probably exhaust valve life.
But ultimately you are going to be traction capacity limited, especially on any sort of road tyre, so if you start making in the 350+RWKW, then it would be a hugely fun ride with lots of tyre smoke .
A 3.45l twin turbo engine in a rear wheel drive car not much bigger than my go-kart  :c ool:
Last edited by Duk; 07-15-2009 at 10:26 PM.
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07-16-2009, 04:22 AM
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Getrag, you say? On the fifth page of this thread there is pictures of a BMW M5 box and a Volvo 960 Diff bolted up in a transaxle configuration. Clutch is up front. Forum is in swedish put pics are multi lingual. =)
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07-17-2009, 08:45 AM
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Thanks for all of the suggestions; sounds like great advice!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsiopener
Hi JJ, Are you starting with a stock motor or are you building one with 10:1 pistons. If so why not just start with a low compression engine.
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We don't want to build yet - the reasoning is that if we are going to build, we'll go bigger and better. Besides, we don't want to blow up an expensive (built) motor. What we would like to do is complete our learning-curve on a stock-standard 24v motor, so 10.0:1 it is. When we validate our setup, we'll build a 9.5:1 3.45 litre with forged pistons and rods, with commensurate head-work etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsiopener
Do you think that you can use the Gotech to handle the boost?
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There have probably been about 20-30-40 twin-turbo Alfas built in the last 5-6-7 years that run/ran on GoTech, so yes - we would likely be doing the same. That way we have access to start-up maps etc.
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; Future 24v Projects; '06 Scion XB - Runs!
Last edited by junglejustice; 07-18-2009 at 08:43 AM.
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07-17-2009, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duk
Garrett BB turbo's are my preferred choice . If you could get the full potential out of a pair of GT2871r's, youd be pumping over 400RWKW. Unless you have a need for more KW, there is no need for turbo's bigger than that. |
Well, that sounds good however, we want the scalability to be able to feed something more in the order of 500 to 530KW (as is being done now on a few cars at home...) We will definitely be doing BB turbos, but keep in mind that we are trying to size the long-term setup for what would ultimately be a built 9.5:1 3.45 litre 24 valve.
So, even if the turbos are too large for the 3.0, of if the boost has to be reduced for now, or there is a bunch of lag, or the maximum power potential on the 10.0:1 3.0 can not be extracted for now, we want the rest of the setup to be 3.45 litre/9.5:1-ready! Make sense?
Besides - like I mentioned - on just .5 to .6 BAR boost on a stock standard 10.0:1 compression TT 3.0 litre 24v, we have already seen power WELL-beyond that of my and Jes' full-race 3.7 litre 12.0:1 motors that have well over 400 horses at the crank!
Once the setup is validated on a project here and we go to a built 9.5:1 3.45 litre motor and crank it up to 1 BAR, we should see around 850-900 Nm torque at the wheels and around 520-plus Kw and that is what we are trying to prepare for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duk
Having said that, your intended quite high static compression ratio has me wondering what sort of fuel be using and the cars intended purpose...... If it is planned to be a track car running any of the 'heavey' high octane race fuel or (better still ) methanol, then possibly a move to the Garrett GT30 range would be better interms of turbo durabillity. |
Well, it is not our intended or planned high static compression choice, as much as it is simply the default CR for a standard 24v core. We'll bring it down later with a 3.45 litre build, but we are trying to avoid spending money on building a 3.0 and simply utilize a stock used 3.0 core for now. Also, water-injection and methanol-setups are not required for this configuration - nor is race fuel.
You can achieve similar safety-margins by a) keeping the boost low, b) providing adequate air-charge cooling and engine cooling, c) with accurate fueling from your engine management system and with d) safe and conservative timing maps in your EMS as well...
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Full-Race 3.7 Litre 24v Milano; Street/Track 3.0 Litre 24v Milano Verde; 6-speed 3.45 litre 24v Street 164 LS/Super; Future 24v Projects; '06 Scion XB - Runs!
Last edited by junglejustice; 07-17-2009 at 10:03 AM.
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07-18-2009, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by junglejustice
Once the setup is validated on a project here and we go to a built 9.5:1 3.45 litre motor and crank it up to 1 BAR, we should see around 850-900 Nm torque at the wheels and around 520-plus Kw and that is what we are trying to prepare for.
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This is some very serious territory here.
It's well beyond my experiance, but I will say that, in my opinion, a 9.5:1 compression ratio with such a big bore and running pump fuel (not familiar with U.S fuel octane rating methods, they seem different to the Australian method/rating) with up to 1 bar of boost, it will be interesting to see/read about the tuning used to keep detonation at bay.
Low ignition advance angles at high loads equal huge exhaust gas temperatures.
Exstra back pressure from turbine housings and turbine wheels cause huge heat retention.
Exstra fuel pored down the throat of the engine can only help to a certain point here.
I personally would be looking at an effective water injection system myself. Cheep insurance against a ventilated block or pistons...........
Upping the turbo scale, I'd deffinately then be looking at the Garrett GT30 range.
I'd also look towards the larger turbine housing A/R ratio's (0.84 or even the 1.06) to try and keep the back pressure down and let the engine rev higher to achieve your target power thru more revs than simply massive amounts of midrange torque.
38+ mm Exsternal wastegates (1 for each bank).
I'd also look at getting the exhaust ports, back of the exhaust valves, inside (and out) of the exhaust manifolds and turbine housings ceramic coated to try and help these components last.
520KW+ from a 3.4ltr engine, with a 9.5:1 CR on pump fuel is a big ask.
I do personnally think you are expecting to much, but would love to see you succeed in achieving it.!!!
Deffinately some serious work ahead tho!
Good luck with this project, it will be massive .
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