New US-Based 24 Valve Twin Turbo Milano Project;

[MrT]

JJ, a few words from a non-participant here: Why risk your heads with 10.0:1 stock pistons in a used(?) engine? Wouldn't it be better to work your compression down to non-interference range and put in new bottom-end bearings at the same time? A set of heads properly worked is painful (24V especially). Just asking.

Michael

[junglejustice]

Keep in mind that unless we have been lied to over and over (which I strongly doubt - Glenwood's experience with turbo-charging is well-known), the infamous Alfa-engined twin turbo 24 valve 3.45 litre Ultima GTR at home pushes the 522Kw/888Nm numbers that I referenced (on the same pistons and rods that I supply from here...) So, I know that it is there for this configuration!

I have been in that thing on more than one occasion and it is a BEAST!

Dawie's own front-gearboxed TT GTV6 is probably laying down about the same numbers since the specs are similar and you have the same guys putting it together and tuning it! Arguably, Dr. Kidgell's overall car is a lot more advanced - and the plant more developed (since you now have dry-sump and so forth), but overall the basics are the same for the two motors. I drove this car and I can honestly say that it blew my mind (and I have been in a number of TT Porsches, a GTR, some fast Lambos, a TT Vette, an SC Viper etc.

Handling characteristics aside and the chassis ability (or our inability) to handle that power not-with-standing, the power is there today. What I am looking for here are alternative opinions on setup and I very much appreciate all of the input! This has been great for me.

[junglejustice]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrT JJ, a few words from a non-participant here: Why risk your heads with 10.0:1 stock pistons in a used(?) engine? Wouldn't it be better to work your compression down to non-interference range and put in new bottom-end bearings at the same time? A set of heads properly worked is painful (24V especially). Just asking. Michael

[spiderrey]

newbie question, where did the 6 speed come from that is in the verde listed at the bottom of the last post?

[junglejustice]

Are you talking about the South African GTV6 conversions that Glenwood has completed with forward-mounted M3 and M5 gearboxes, or are you talking about the 3.45 litre 164 referenced in my profile signature that is retrofitted with a 156 GTA 6-speed gearbox? Yeah - look again - the cars are separated by " ; "...

[spiderrey]

i was curious about your signiture profile car, verde. i dont know anything about alfas, other then what i saw when i stripped a 77 sprint veloce down to nothing. im hopefully picking up a verde in a week, and am trying to learn about the car and maybe somethings i can do to improve it a bit.
i needed a bigger car, all my current ones only seat 2, silverado, 70 124 spider, 74 x 1/9.

[junglejustice]

Cool! Well, welcome...

Start a new thread with an introduction and some pictures of your other cars! Plenty of opinions here (and members willing to jump in with great advice)!

[spiderrey]

thanx. i will have the car in a week hopefully if all goes well. then i will start a thread with pics. thanx again.
reyy

[buzzed]

Just stumbled across this thread, have you seen the twin turbo setup on youtube? It is a VERY nice setup ok not quad cam but still nice!

YouTube - Alfa Alfetta 3.0L Twin Turbo First Time start Up ... Fully Sick SIX

PART #

Duk, I think the reason people worry about turbo damage from the lack of a pressure relief valve (bosch bypass etc) is that on the older plain bearing turbos, the 180degree (or 360degree) thrust bearings struggle with the asscaited pressure on them whithout a bypass valve. This is exhasibated by people running 15+lb's. The thrust bearings oil film simply cant take the load under certain conditions and you end up with high wearrates on the thrust bearing....that then leads to the compressor wheel touching the housing....and then your turbo is in the poo.

I'll agree that bosch valves are suffiencient, and when they are not...just add another one! But, they DO look crap....so I guess you get what you pay for. I'm not into the bling so much, but bosch valves are nasty looking things and should be hidden :-)

Interesting project though. PM me if you would like a second oppinion on turbo sizing, I size mine from appropraite calulations rather than just gut feel (that helps too!). Anyway I always like an excuse to size turbos for people. FYI I did spec a set of GT2871R turbos for a Nissan R33 GTR. It revved to 8500rpm, ran 19lb's, made good torque from 3500rpm and produced 330rwkw's on street fuel (98octane RON). Duk, FYI, Americans tend to state the MON number for fuels which is lower than the RON. Their fuel is pretty much the same as in Aus. The numbers are motor octane number and research ocatane number and they are numbers produced from a test with a single piston motor designed to increase the compression ratio as the test is conduted. The ability of the fuel to resist detonation in this engine gives rise the the indicative number. The speed of the engine is a set rpm, 2400 from memory for RON, and I 'think' 1200rpm for MON...I'm a bit sketchy on the actual numbers as its been a few years since I learnt about this. Our fuels in Aus have both numbers calculated and its very interesting because MON and RON are improtant for different conditions. MON is indicative if fuels ability to resist detonation at lower speeds and rears its head in the engines ability to have advance wound into it at low speed higher torque requirements, like up a hill at lower rpm. RON is more about the other end of the spectrum.....ever notice you can run more advance on BP premium compared with Shell premium in Aus....yet they have the same RON? Thats becuase their MON is not the same....and theres a about 4 points in it.

I agree with your logic, stick with 10:1 heads and the approriate larger sized turbos for lower comp higher cc....BUT, really think about the power requirements and the boost you plan to run. You really need to decide how far the guy will go so that the system can be optimised for the kind of driving he plans to do.

[junglejustice]

This more like what I have in mind...

YouTube - Glenwood Test 3.5 tt at new workshop

There are more "mundane" Alfa TT installations that DO fit under a stock hood however, with this setup the Milano/75 hood would require a complete re-work - as can be seen from this installation in a GTV6...

YouTube - Alfa GTV 6 Twin Turbo 3.4L

[junglejustice]

Yes-yes - a bit of a deviation from the original intent for a US-based Milano Twin Turbo project here, but it is all fluid. Don't be surprised if this motor ends up in a mid-engine conversion 155 with a G50 gearbox behind it - as can be seen about mid-way through this video - or in an Ultima GTR...

YouTube - Alfa 155 twin turbo - Gotech car at Alfa Club of SA concours

Dom from GoTech has done an UNBELIEVABLE job on this wide-body 155! I think that he used an Audi FWD gearbox behind the engine though and I hear that it works GREAT! He's making 350 Kw (470 horses) AT THE WHEELS - and that's up at 6000 foot elevation on a 3.0 litre 24 valve with only 1 BAR boost!

So, the choices are -
1) Milano or GTV6 with the Getrag right behind the engine, E46 diff. at the rear and the tunnel modified to accommodate a bell-housing and 6-speed Getrag upfront! (about a 50-60K project complete, or less - depending on how much car you already start with...)

2) Ultima GTR with the Twin Turbo 24v at the rear and the Porsche G50 gearbox behind it (axles out the side)! An 80-90K build and already a proven project (one of these Alfa-powered monsters running in SA for years now)! Sort of a known path, but also the most money! The allure of the Lexus V8 or the Infiniti V8 with TTs is undeniable, but then it is no longer Alfa-relevant. Besides, Stuart's car with the twin turbo Alfa V6 big-bore routinely kicks Noble twin turbo, V8 Ultima and twin turbo Porsche arse over there, so I would think nothing of the V6 in the Ultima rather than a V8.

3) 155 with the big-bore 24v TT and a G50 or Audi gearbox behind the motor - entire drive-train installed amidships behind the driver - clearly now also a proven project! (Probably also a 50-60K project as well). It would somehow have to be registered as a custom rebuild or enthusiast's / kit-build in order to run it on the streets here!

[junglejustice]

So, with about 20K kilometers on two (as for now) secret 3.7 litre twin turbo projects (much of it on the track), it is starting to look like 3.7 litre TT is viable (from our current piston and rod configurations)!

My front-mounted 6-speed Getrag, conversion-plate, bell-housing, drive-shaft, Sei diff and diff bracket is underway! (I was against the Sei diff in favor of the BMW diff - because it is so heavy - but by the time you build a cradle for the BMW diff, you are back to the weight of the Sei diff (that actually hangs right from the standard transaxle mounting-point at the rear)!

More to come...

[alfaspence]

JJ, you don't learn do ya bud

despite no longer owning my 75 anymore, iam going to be watching this with very great interest

i still believe the alfa v6 is the best v6 of all time