More Performance, please!

[Duk]

I want more grunt from my 3ltr 12 valve!
The 75 deserves more power (especially to drag around her heavy Italian behind).
I was shown a clean(ish) pair of heals a few weeks ago by a late model Toyota 4 Runner (4WD commercial type vehicle for those who don't know) in a 'from 80km/hr in 4th gear' race.
This disgusts me no end !
I need options for improved performance for my Italian stallion (mule is more like it).
Despite my love of Greg's work, please don't mention his supercharger kit. It just isn't in the budget (week Aussie dollar, freight, tax, etc).
Also, I refuse to hide behind a low diff ratio! If she can't drive with decent performance and the diff ratio she has, then she is going to be sold!
Thoughts are as follows:
A new inlet manifold that incorporated longer runners to improve low rpm torque.
A twin plenum chamber/twin throttle body set up that uses a valve controlled integration port/pipe to link the 2 plenums together to (hopefully) improve higher RPM performance.
A set of long primary extractors (50cm long at least).
Some head work would be very nice! I have seen the inlet ports and was very disappointed with what I saw. I have also been hanging out for Jim K's book for the V6, hoping that it will have detailed info on porting the V6 heads, but it's release date just keeps getting put out .
New cams would be fantastic, but some of the dollar figures I have seen for the (overrated) 164S cams is off putting. Custom cams are so few and far between.......... It's not inspiring.
A compression ratio increase is obviously a worthwhile improvement.
A programmable computer to correctly tune the set up and ditch the small, flow strangulating air flow meter.
Failing that, a low boost twin turbo set up that raids the turbos from a Skyline GTR, ebay intercooler, water injection, bigger injectors and a programmable computer.....
Engine swap..............So frustratingly tempting .
Owning 2 Japanese performance cars tends to raise your dollar to performance ratio a lot! I'm not talking highly modified Skyline GTRs of Supra RZs but the 1's in my signature. Both of these cars slap my 75 and laugh at it. Both have performance upgrades done by yours truly. Both lots of upgrades were done with a modest budgets.
I can make most things like manifolds, but parts like camshafts are obviously beyond me, and I'm also not inclined to wreck a pair of (expensive/overpriced) heads with misdirected, over enthusiastic DIY porting.
I love the balance and uniqueness of my 75, but it's expensive engine that has such average performance just annoys me. Yes it sounds fantastic, but it's sound doesn't make it a good performer.
"He hates and both loves the ring................" (sorry, to much Lord of the Ring for this little black Duk )

[Mezevenf]

Low boost single turbo is a good option, depending on what the situation is like in SA you. I know here everyone 2nd shop would setup a single turbo for you for not too expensive. Turbo parts and accessories are cheap too thanks too all the jap guys.

Std motor yields pretty awesome results from a low boost single turbo. Best bang for your buck when it comes to these cars.

Also, 80km in 4th? Thats light 2nd gear territory

[inhistoryclass]

yeh that or getting a different car.

[Duk]

Hey Bernard, long time no read on the BB .

Single turbo is tempting, especially after reading about Garth's single set up on GTV6.com (is he on the BB?). Only issue I see is that I want to retain my power steering pump and a single turbo set up would put the manifold very close to it. I figure a twin turbo set up would give more heat clearance for the pump.

2nd gear at 80ks just seams like it's all noise and no go (not such an issue in your 24 valve. Yeh I've seen some of your vids ). 3rd would have been better but I'm just use to a more lazy, broad torque curve type of engine. That's my ambition. To achieve 1 for the Alfa

BTW, I was only trying to keep up with, not overtake the (big fat, crap aerodynamics) 4 Runner, hence my annoyance

[Duk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by inhistoryclass yeh that or getting a different car.

[junglejustice]

Dunno man! There's about 10 ways that you can go here, but at the end of the day, it comes down to budget (and time...)

1) Eliminating turbo-charging as an option for now (already mentioned - and besides - you would still have the limitations of the standard internals that would need to be upgraded at some point any way!)

2) Eliminating supercharging as an option as per your request (and also see the points in number 1 above!)

3) Bolt-on stuff; I had very good success with the large-large 50mm cast aluminium intake-runners and modified plenum from South Africa on my (otherwise standard) 3.0 litre 12 valve street/track Milano/75! Coupled with programmable fuel and timing (I used the GoTech for price and convenience sake), this also eliminated the restrictive flapper-crapper air-flow meter!

I had a good set of headers (also from SA) and ended up somewhere around 173 to 180 at the wheels on two different dynos back-to-back on the same day - A DynoJet and a Mustang dyno (the Mustang read higher BTW...) It took a bit of work on my side to get it all dialed in right, but the guys around here knew that car and knows that it ran STRONG at the track for years!

I never even did cams, but you could then also add a set of Glenwood's Group 1 street/track cams and end up with a pretty nice "bolt-in" package (and power comfortably in the range that I mentioned above - on most any bloody dyno!) At this point you're likely somewhere around 200-210 naturally-aspirated crank-horses - not bad for not even unzipping her! Total cost for all four options will set you back 3,000 USD plus shipping though and now you're in the forced-induction territory in terms of parts-cost, which brings me to option number 4...!

4) For 3 grand you are also half-way towards a nice rebuild on a 3.0 12 valve with larger valves, the pistons and rods modified for higher compression, a good port-job and decent balancing! Now, you still need the other 3K for the performance parts-list mentioned in point number 3 above however, you should now be somewhere around 7K (by the time you add a gasket-set and assembly labor), maybe 8K or so!

You're now sitting on a brand new 10.4:1 compression motor with about 220-230 horses, programmable fuel and timing, multi-coils, custom cams, custom intakes, custom headers, pump-gas and lots of bang for the buck! Still, this now also bumps you right into option number 5 on the list -

5) Taking a converted 24 valve package for around 9K USD (good, low-mile standard 3.0 with 10.0:1 compression) and adding the GTA Stage I or Stage II cams, again the GoTech (but this time the Pro or Pro-X model), correct oval-port headers, 44mm GTA/Q intake runners, modified plenum (and again - no flapper-crapper AFM...)

Now you're closer to an honest 260-270 horses (seeing perhaps 215-220 at the wheels at sea-level), again on pump-gas! This is as far as you can take things in my opinion before sending you into 5-digit rebuild cost territory!

6) From here you jump to a few thousand more for a built 3.2 litre GTA donk, then a 3.45 - above that a bit - then a 3.7, then a full-race whatever of whichever option - on and on... It never stops! With the big-bores you also end up with forged steel chrome molly connecting rods, forged aluminium-alloy pistons, a wider-range of cam options and total flexibility in final compression-ratios!

Now you also have to start comparing and re-thing things yet again, because you could be building a strong 9.5:1 24 valve 3.0 for example and go with twin-turbos and blow the damn NA 3.7 out of the water!

[slyalfa]

hmm. I would say go with a ECU first. that lets you do all the other stuff.
then if just for the once in a while blast NOx might be best. but if you can do the plumbing a turbo should be very cheap to do.
other places to put them is in front of the motor. or even in back where the rear muffler goes.

[nizam]

Sorry Duk, but this equation will always be true:

$$$ = Speed

The 'value for money' part does depend heavily on the car, and how many people have done work to armortize the cost across the market. Sadly, the Alfa 75 isn't a 200SX or an AE86, or a Type-R. But you already knew that

Lots of good tips above, but they will all require you to open up that wallet, or swallow a little pride and 'hide behind lower diff ratios'

[Gubi]

Personally I've been considering a JATO unit.

[Duk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gubi Personally I've been considering a JATO unit.

[75evo]

You need cams and an increase in compression, which means money. There is no other way around it unless you did what Garth did to his GTV6. Even that will cost you some. The head is where the power is going to come from. JimK got lots of power from the 12V, more than some modified 24Vs. Of course he knows what he is doing.

I also don't know why you call it over priced?? I have a 3.0 head for sale costing less than an iPod and no one would buy it.

I have the Alfa around because I like it and not because it's fast. But at a recent track day Nizam and I were somewhat keeping up with a 135i which was lowered, and had fat tires in my 3.0 12V. My car's head is 100% stock and it doesn't even have a good extractor/header. So it's not really slow, nor is it fast.

[Grant]

It's pretty quick though...if my car could do 0-60 in like 7.5-7.8 seconds (estimating - 4.1 rear and a lot less weight than stock) yours would surely be high 6 or low 7 seconds!

[nizam]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 75evo But at a recent track day Nizam and I were somewhat keeping up with a 135i which was lowered, and had fat tires in my 3.0 12V. My car's head is 100% stock and it doesn't even have a good extractor/header. So it's not really slow, nor is it fast.

[DonBeeson]

Well since you say a supercharger kit is out of your price range, then the engine rebuild/porting/camshafts will be out of your range as well.
Also a 24 valve swap will possibly end up more expensive than a bolt Greg's supercharger kit. It really depends on how lucky you get when you find that "perfect 24 valve." You know, the one that got written off in 1996 and noone has found it in the junk yard yet. Just needs new seals.

I dont know why a different gear ratio pisses you off. Thats got to be one of the cheapest quick 0-60 things to change.

Also 80km/h is definitely second gear range. No wonder you got creamed man. I used to take my Verde with stock rear end and stock 12V up to 130 km/h (according to speedo) in second gear.

So your best option now is to gut the sucker, get rid of the sunroof, cheese every panel you've got, lighten as many points as you can, lose the power steering, A/C, twin spark bumpers, small fuel cell....

Sorry if I'm coming off angry, it's my finals season.

[Mezevenf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duk Hey Bernard, long time no read on the BB . Single turbo is tempting, especially after reading about Garth's single set up on GTV6.com (is he on the BB?). Only issue I see is that I want to retain my power steering pump and a single turbo set up would put the manifold very close to it... ...I'm just use to a more lazy, broad torque curve type of engine. That's my ambition. To achieve 1 for the Alfa