Restoring and building a Milano track / Lemons car - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-09-2016, 03:03 PM Thread Starter
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That has been part of the fun of the ABS system. Figuring out which relay does what since none of them are labelled in the manuals.
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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-09-2016, 03:49 PM
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And therein lies a great ideas for sticky post - which relays do what, with photos..
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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-09-2016, 07:05 PM
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Nice another Argento Bianco Platinum. I purchased a new abs accumulator from ebay recently and brakes work great now. Spendy though at $280. I like abs feel over non abs brakes too.

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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-10-2016, 04:53 PM Thread Starter
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And therein lies a great ideas for sticky post - which relays do what, with photos..
I will do my best to add to the general Alfa knowledge, I always try to. There's lots of info on here, but it's not really organized.

Ian Lomax - Current: 1973 Berlina, 1987 Milano Platinum "racecar"
Past: 71, 74 Spiders, 2x 74 Berlina, 74 GTV, 76 Alfetta GT, 88 Milano 3.0, 164LS
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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-12-2016, 10:30 PM Thread Starter
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Success! Seth diagnosed a bad fuse in the main ABS relay, the plastic one with the fuse on top. The other three fuses are for the other three relays behind the fusebox. I had replaced the fusebox at this point so don't have a good photo of them unfortunately.

The second photo is the offending 30 amp fuse. It looked fine but was cracked.

Once we replaced the fuse the pump started running with the key on! I don't think the accumulator is holding pressure but the brakes seem to actually work now, and with a running pump at least we hopefully only have to replace the accumulator.

We also might have found one source of our driveline vibration. Seth was admiring the engine and poking around and saw the front giubo behind the engine. It just happened that the engine stopped with the giubo oriented so you can see a big chunk missing from it. So whoever recently replaced the giubos either missed the front one, or it already broke. Hopefully a new giubo will sort most of the vibration.

We also notice a few loose bolts, odd hose clamps etc and did some general cleanup. Not bad for an hour's work in a dark driveway in 40 degree weather.
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Ian Lomax - Current: 1973 Berlina, 1987 Milano Platinum "racecar"
Past: 71, 74 Spiders, 2x 74 Berlina, 74 GTV, 76 Alfetta GT, 88 Milano 3.0, 164LS

Last edited by archeologist; 12-12-2016 at 10:57 PM.
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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-13-2016, 08:20 AM
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whilst under the car, you would be well advised to check all the donuts, rear engine mount, trans mounts, side engine mounts. give a look to fuel lines, change filter.
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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-16-2016, 05:46 PM
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I raced a Milano with ABS in Lemons for a few years. I went through the ABS pump & accumulator. (actually found "new ones") They worked fine. Along the way I accumulated a bunch of spare parts, controller etc. I've since disposed of them since switching to old school brakes.

The thing with the ABS was that it never worked. The servo valving never cut in. And the default braking with the ABS seemed to heavily favor locking the rear brakes. Which never really worked for me on corner entry.

SO I add to the chorus of find a pedal box from a non ABS car and swap it in. Its a PITA but a good change. You will need an OEM or a aftermarket prop valve to cut the rear braking action with this change.

Greg

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)
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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-17-2016, 08:33 AM
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The brake feel argument always comes up when we talk about ABS delete.
Simply install Wilwood residual brake pressure valves and I guarantee you won't be able to tell the difference in pedal feel.

87 Milano Platinum
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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-20-2016, 10:40 PM Thread Starter
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The brake feel argument always comes up when we talk about ABS delete.
Simply install Wilwood residual brake pressure valves and I guarantee you won't be able to tell the difference in pedal feel.
Forgive my stupid question, but install the Wilwood valves on the ABS system, or non-ABS system?

Never mind, looked it up. Helps the non-ABS brakes.

Ian Lomax - Current: 1973 Berlina, 1987 Milano Platinum "racecar"
Past: 71, 74 Spiders, 2x 74 Berlina, 74 GTV, 76 Alfetta GT, 88 Milano 3.0, 164LS

Last edited by archeologist; 12-20-2016 at 10:50 PM.
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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-21-2016, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
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Forgive my stupid question, but install the Wilwood valves on the ABS system, or non-ABS system?

Never mind, looked it up. Helps the non-ABS brakes.
I think one of the issues with getting the ABS systems to work is that the sensors that generate the wheel speed rarely work in these old cars. And I suspect if the computer is not getting all 4 signals the ABS is disabled.

I've also heard that these early first generation ABS systems treat the rear wheels as one and won't individually modulate from side to side.

With my Milano's ABS system in good working condition - but without the electronics working my car had waaaaay to much rear brake when running with all the race brake pads I tried.

The only plus for the ABS was that it made bleeding the rear brakes easy. I ran the ABS for a few years trying to get it working. It never did.

Greg

1972 Berlina Vintage Racer, 1987 Milano Platinum (LeMons Car), 1982 GTV6 EP Race Car, 1974 GTV Vintage Race Car, 2012 VW GTI stage II, 1966 Corvette Coupe 327-350, 2007 Triumph T100 Bonneville. Dearly departed: 1971 Fiat 124 Spider, 1983 Saab 900 Turbo, 2004 Saab 9-3 Aero, 1995 BMW 540i Sport, 2014 Audi A4 (swamped)
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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 12-21-2016, 06:38 AM
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Quote:
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Forgive my stupid question, but install the Wilwood valves on the ABS system, or non-ABS system?

Never mind, looked it up. Helps the non-ABS brakes.
I was taught there were no stupid questions
Some feel there is a different pedal feel between ABS and non ABS. In my experience the actual pedal feel is the same, the difference is in the initial pedal travel. Where the ABS pedal feels firm from the very top the non ABS pedal has more travel before it engages. The residual valves solve that problem.
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76 Alfetta GT race car
70 Fulvia 1.3 Rally S
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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 01:47 PM
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I'll have lots of stupid questions... I'm the Seth.

I think now that we've got some pedal feel finally, with the pump running (and a spare pump and accumulator on the shelf, in unknown condition), we can better assess the condition of the system and make a better decision about the future of it under race conditions.

So, yeah, brake pump runs constantly, which I assume will likely be the accumulator. I can hopefully sort that with our other one (is this just a remove and replace deal, accumulator is swapped in 10 minutes?), but we have the dash light on, so I further assume the rabbit hole goes deeper there. I suppose we can tackle the rest of the abs after we have gone through the brakes, which look like they've seen action as a coast guard fleet vehicle.

Just for summary: the community concludes that the actual feature of having ABS is not valuable on the track, however it's a fairly reasonable expectation to have power brakes. If we go chasing the actual anti-lock feature, we should find this residual valve.

Tomorrow we have a shop day in a **partially** heated and dry, single car workspace, I can taste the luxury. We will post findings, which there are sure to be many. Honestly, this is a fun car already... this brief experience illustrates that these sleds not all calculated and dry like Porsches. My take is that the Milano is far more reliant on a working philosophy of finesse over the meticulousness that German cars prefer. In any case, there is enough crossover of technology from the 80's era electrics and architecture (i <3 transaxles) that I'm already comfortable and this has been a great entry into the fold.

Thanks for all the support already, Alfistas!
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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 02:41 PM
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Brake pump buzzing constantly when applying brakes is bad accumulator. Yes it is a simple twist off (careful it is full of fluid), twist on, top off fluid procedure. My ABS works great with a new accumulator.

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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 09:35 PM Thread Starter
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Seth and I made lots of progress today, which is pretty impressive considering just how small and frickin cold my garage was today. About 40 degrees I'd say. Closer to 32 on the floor. Brrr.... I haven't lived in the midwest for years, my blood has definitely thinned.

So the goal today was to get the exhaust and driveshaft out. We had an exhaust leak at the passenger manifold to pipe connection, and one in the back section of the Ansa piece that we hope to weld up while it's out. We figured out that the leak at the manifold was due to a frozen nut that wasn't clamped down properly. I'll soak it in Evaporust to free it up before reinstalling.

I hate exhaust work. So I was pleasantly surprised when all but one of the exhaust nuts came off, and we had the whole exhaust out in less than an hour.

Pulling the driveshaft also wasn't as bad as expected. Seth seemed to alternate between "why the hell did they design it this way?" (and of course the answer is always "Because Italian") and "this is way easier to work on than a 944.

While I was fighting the 19mm bolts on the driveshaft - the last shop to work on them torqued them to about 1000 lb-ft - Seth took the time to swap the plugs with a new set of Bosch non-platinum plugs to hopefully cure a misfire at idle. We'll need to fix a leaking valve cover gasket, but we can do that when we torque the heads.

Once we had the driveshaft out we could finally see the broken front giubo, and discovered a broken bearing at the front. The bushing at the tailshaft looked ok, but if I can find one cheap we'll replace it.
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/atta...mentid=1171745
Next up is pulling the clutch to check it while we have it this apart. The transaxle bushings are supposed to be newer and poly, so that's a bonus.

Does anybody know where we can find the bushings from the front of the driveshaft? Specifically #5 in the photos below.

I believe we are also missing a rubber piece from the rear of the driveshaft.

Also, does this center support look like it needs to be replaced? It seems to have taken a set, and the rubber is cracking, so we plan to replace it while it's out.

Thanks for all the help so far gang, I'm excited to get the driveline vibrations sorted and the clutch properly bled so we can take it for a good drive.
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Ian Lomax - Current: 1973 Berlina, 1987 Milano Platinum "racecar"
Past: 71, 74 Spiders, 2x 74 Berlina, 74 GTV, 76 Alfetta GT, 88 Milano 3.0, 164LS
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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 01-08-2017, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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Whoops, the parts diagram didn't attach. Here it is.
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Ian Lomax - Current: 1973 Berlina, 1987 Milano Platinum "racecar"
Past: 71, 74 Spiders, 2x 74 Berlina, 74 GTV, 76 Alfetta GT, 88 Milano 3.0, 164LS
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