3.0 Head Identification Question - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 06:19 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester, CT
Posts: 370
Garage
Send a message via AIM to DOM!
3.0 Head Identification Question

Hi All,

I am feverishly assembling my Verde's motor. I ordered a new sprocket and distributor gear for the heads I have from Larry @ APE. He brought up an interesting point. He asked if they were 164 heads. I assumed they were from a Verde. Now for long reasons I don't have the original heads from my motor. These heads came sans sprockets.

But Larry brought up a point about the distributor drive gear and how the gears are different. Now Steve had said the sprocket was different but now I am concerned due to the lack of origin of these heads, do I have 164 heads? Now they came with the block off plate but I am not sure if Larry is sending the right gear for me!

Thanks,
Domenic

DOM! 1987 Milano Verde 1983 GTV6
2009 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI 2003 Ducati 999
DOM! is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 06:20 PM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester, CT
Posts: 370
Garage
Send a message via AIM to DOM!
Here's a picture



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DOM! 1987 Milano Verde 1983 GTV6
2009 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI 2003 Ducati 999
DOM! is offline  
post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 07:33 PM
Senior Member
Gold Subscriber
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Houston Texas USA
Posts: 413
Alfa 164 and 3.0 Milano use the same head casting and both have the space for cam driven distributor.

The important thing is to count the teeth on the gear on the oil drive, and count the teeth on the gear that sits on the oil pump shaft. I don't remember the numbers offhand but they are on this site.

Also at the back of the head is nipple that goes to the heater core. Pretty sure that is different from Milano to 164.

Finally statistically you are way more likely to have 164 heads. They made many more 164's than Verde's.

It's very important to get the oil drive gears correct, low oil pressure is the result if you don't.

Bye
Milanoguy is offline  
 
post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-17-2016, 10:39 PM
Registered User
 
Alfaguy35's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Novato Ca.
Posts: 1,107
Correct oil pump drive gear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milanoguy View Post
Alfa 164 and 3.0 Milano use the same head casting and both have the space for cam driven distributor.

It's very important to get the oil drive gears correct, low oil pressure is the result if you don't.

Bye
But more important then that is is the 164 drives the oil pump at some speed less than half of engine RPM which will mean the distributor is being driven at the wrong speed so you'll have incorrect timing.

Wes
Winner 24 Hours of Lemons, Finally
Alfaguy35 is offline  
post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 05:26 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester, CT
Posts: 370
Garage
Send a message via AIM to DOM!
I am trying to find the tooth count but as of this writing have not been able to. I am thinking it is a Milano head as it came with the block off plate. Couple that with Larry sending me the Milano drive gear and sprocket I should be fine. I think!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DOM! 1987 Milano Verde 1983 GTV6
2009 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI 2003 Ducati 999
DOM! is offline  
post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 06:11 AM
Registered User
 
kredden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salem, NH
Posts: 3,219
That does not look like a OEM block off plate to me. Here is a detailed writeup I did years ago when I was preparing to drop a 164 engine into my Verde. It points out the stuff I had to change which might give you some clue to what you have:

Alfa Milano Registry - Verde Rebuild Finishing Up

Kevin

Currently Alfaless. Ex: 87 Verde, 86 GTV6, 67 Super, 86 Spider, 88 LeMons Verde
Milano registry custodian(
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
kredden is online now  
post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 06:25 AM
Richard Jemison
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfar7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Pensacola, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 5,779
Oil pump speed

Quote:
But more important then that is is the 164 drives the oil pump at some speed less than half of engine RPM which will mean the distributor is being driven at the wrong speed so you'll have incorrect timing.
Actually it drives it faster, an accomodation to have adequate oil pressure due to the oil squirters in the 164 engines.

Richard Jemison
RJR Racing

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

"When you are dead you don`t know it.
Only those around you are distressed.
Same with stupid"
Alfar7 is offline  
post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 07:13 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester, CT
Posts: 370
Garage
Send a message via AIM to DOM!
Quote:
Originally Posted by kredden View Post
That does not look like a OEM block off plate to me. Here is a detailed writeup I did years ago when I was preparing to drop a 164 engine into my Verde. It points out the stuff I had to change which might give you some clue to what you have:

Alfa Milano Registry - Verde Rebuild Finishing Up

Kevin


Kevin-

Funny I read that this morning in my efforts to get this straightened out.

Dom


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DOM! 1987 Milano Verde 1983 GTV6
2009 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI 2003 Ducati 999
DOM! is offline  
post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 09:53 AM
Registered User
 
racingswim2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 3,725
Looks like an OEM block off plate to me...

Rob
Alfas first, then everything else.
racingswim2006 is offline  
post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 09:53 AM
Registered User
 
racingswim2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 3,725
Also, you can measure the heater hose fitting on the cylinder head to suggest which car they originally came from. I seem to remember 1/2" for Verde, and 3/4" for 164. IT can be changed, but it's usually stuck in there pretty well.

And...one more thing: the heads seem to have the "crosshatch" pattern visible from its casting mold. I've only ever seen that on 164 3.0 heads.

Rob
Alfas first, then everything else.
racingswim2006 is offline  
post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 10:18 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfisto Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
Posts: 24,050
TSB 01.92.02 Alfa V6 12v aux shaft drive and oil pump driven driven gear Sets Info

Be advised early non-164S model engine heads, that is early 164B/164L models without oil coolers, did not have oil squirters or the faster spinning oil pump gears.

Early 164B/L engines have same gears on aux shaft and oil pump as GTV6 and Milano engines. They are matched sets you can not mix and match gears.

Refer to TSB 01.92.02 Auxiliary Drive Gear Sets all 2.5 and 3.0 Engines

Early gears 10 tooth aux shaft drive brass gear 60507412 and 60523313 steel 15 tooth oil pump driven gear GTV6, Milano 2.5 and 3.0 and 164 base and L up to 07/90 production.

Note even with that being said the 2.5 engine have different aux shaft and pulley, too.

Later style gear sets used on all 164S engines and later Base and L engines 08/90 production onwards.

14 tooth brass 60559666 aux shaft drive gear and 15 tooth steel 6059665 oil pump gear. This later 15 tooth gear will not mesh with early 10 tooth brass gear.

Note: Aux shaft, and aux shaft pulley same on Verde 3.0L and all 12v 164 engines.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Maintenance Sticky:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Daily drivers: USA models - 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO;

Daughter's current ride: BB1 my 164L and Her Granddads 2002 Ford Taurus is back up.

New parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

Needing TLC non-blackbeast the 93 164L

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 11-18-2016 at 10:28 AM.
Alfisto Steve is offline  
post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 10:19 AM
Registered User
 
kredden's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Salem, NH
Posts: 3,219
Quote:
Originally Posted by racingswim2006 View Post
Looks like an OEM block off plate to me...
You are right, I didn't zoom the picture when I was looking at it and the stain on it made it look like it had a hole in it (to me anyway!). After zooming I saw that yes it does look like a stock one.

Kevin

Currently Alfaless. Ex: 87 Verde, 86 GTV6, 67 Super, 86 Spider, 88 LeMons Verde
Milano registry custodian(
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
kredden is online now  
post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 10:28 AM
Registered User
 
racingswim2006's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 3,725
Quote:
Originally Posted by kredden View Post
You are right, I didn't zoom the picture when I was looking at it and the stain on it made it look like it had a hole in it (to me anyway!). After zooming I saw that yes it does look like a stock one.

Kevin
I had to look twice too, because OEM ones I've seen are usually rusty!

Rob
Alfas first, then everything else.
racingswim2006 is offline  
post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 10:32 AM
Senior Member
Platinum Subscriber
 
Alfisto Steve's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: VB, VA
Posts: 24,050
Quote:
Originally Posted by kredden View Post
You are right, I didn't zoom the picture when I was looking at it and the stain on it made it look like it had a hole in it (to me anyway!). After zooming I saw that yes it does look like a stock one.

Kevin
That blank off plate on L/H (front head on 164)is used on 3.0L Verde heads but removed on 164 head so cam driven distributor can be installed. All 164 front head cams have notch on end to drive dizzy.

Ciao, Alfisto Steve
Virginia Beach, VA
AROC 164 Tech Advisor

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

My Maintenance Sticky:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Daily drivers: USA models - 1991 164S Black Beauty II ALFISTO;

Daughter's current ride: BB1 my 164L and Her Granddads 2002 Ford Taurus is back up.

New parts hauler but not car hauler 2004 Jeep Grand Cherokee Overland 4.7L H.O. V-8

Needing TLC non-blackbeast the 93 164L

"A day without an Alfa whine is like a day without sunshine"

Last edited by Alfisto Steve; 11-18-2016 at 10:36 AM.
Alfisto Steve is offline  
post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 11-18-2016, 10:58 AM Thread Starter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Manchester, CT
Posts: 370
Garage
Send a message via AIM to DOM!
I guess I will be counting the teeth later. Thanks gents


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

DOM! 1987 Milano Verde 1983 GTV6
2009 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI 2003 Ducati 999
DOM! is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome