Dry Sumps

[andythefat]

Anyone know if parts are available to dry sump the V6 engine? I've been told that sump part numbers are the same between front and rear wheel drive V6 (hard to believe) but its the pumps I'm most interested in. Would consider a complete package though.

[scott.venables]

I've seen a photo of 3 different V6 sump gaskets so I'm not sure how the pans being the same could work. Some of those suited 24V motors though. With all the V6 motor swapping going on maybe they can be modified to suit? I remember seing a thread about a Hawk brand Lancia Stratos-like kit car with a 164 motor, maybe something like that has been dry sumped.

[junglejustice]

Check out the motor in my avatar - we did that dry-sump for a gentleman in Australia - pictures are found somewhere around here... Pump is the gold-coloured piece on the right of the engine (left of the picture...)

They are complicated creatures. They don't make immediate pressure to the bearings in after-market setups and that is a problem. I'LL USE A STUPID EXAMPLE TO ILLUSTRATE MY POINT:

Say you were to sit there (in theory) and crank the motor without it starting. You crank and stop, crank and stop - look, fiddle - crank again etc - you will eventually empty out the tank right in to the crank-case without ever registering one pound of pressure on your oil-pressure gauge! I have seen guys go through this even up to and including the point where you have to unhook the lines, crank it and manually pump the oil back in to the tank in the back of the car or wherever it is mounted!

When we sorted the motor in the picture, we started on a simple single filter and stock pump until that thing was 100% sorted, it cranked the first time every-time and the dyno-work was done. Then you change sumps, pump, hook up your pump etc.

I have the whole entire setup for sale that I was going to use on my 3.7 - brand new pump and everything and I LOVE the story about the benefits at higher rpm due to "windage" etc. I have access to the stuff AT COST and I chose not to run it - if that tells you anything. Also, when that little belt driving the pump off of the crank-pulley snaps or comes off, it is all over!

On a full-race engine/team with budget; yes - you will be changing bearings often and inspecting things any way!

On a road/street-track/even a dedicated track and race once in a while privateer car - don't bother. The Alfa pumps are REALLY good - regardless of what the pressure sender says...

[andythefat]

Motor looks fantastic, picture a little too small to help though! How much height did you lose off the sump, what make/type (3 stage) pump did you use? I'm building a road based special, so its just the height i want to reduce.

[Alfar7]

Drysump systems are not going to come as a kit, and will add weight, & complicate things seriously and I would not suggest using one unless you are lowering an engine & need the ground clearance a short pan allows. Fabrication has to be done to fit the application. It is not difficult, but unless you are driving the pump mechanically, a belt requires constant monitoring. The V6 Alfa system is more than adequate for racing, particularly with addition of an Accusump.
If you are determined I suggest a REPUTABLE local race shop. Then you have support for issues that come up.
Good Luck

[andythefat]

That makes a lot of sense....particularly the reliability issue. However, if there is any way i can reduce the height of the engine.....perhaps re shaping the sump longer/shallower?

[junglejustice]

Nice to see Richard and I agree on something AND respond civilized WITHIN the same thread for a change (the jab about using a "REPUTABLE vendor" not-with-standing...) Thanks - honestly!

I agree with Richard - you would be complicating things for yourself.

Here are some better shots of the motor that I mentioned. (Looking at them - the V at the base of the pan is still pretty deep, but it sat way up inside the frame...

And yes - it is a 3-stage pump made by a VERY well-known and REPUTABLE machinist (brilliant guy - named Dorino Tracani) in South Africa. He used to build and race road-race Tigas and drag-race Panteras of legend and he sells these pumps!