An SZ in the USA. Will someone buy it? - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #16 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-06-2015, 12:02 AM
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My choice, your choice, M3 or SZ, buy what you want. For $70,000 or $80,000 I would not buy an SZ. I have owned many other marques than what I have posted here, but I won't list them in an attempt to qualify my statement. I love my Alfa's but for the money I would never buy an SZ. I hope who ever wants to spend that kind of money on one enjoys it to death. I hope you buy one and enjoy it to death. We don't agree and that's OK, and as you say "Who Cares" so have a grand morning and great month

current and or past: 1987 Milano (Ariel) 1984 GTV6 (Sabrina) 1992 164L (Jill) 1992 164S (Kelly) 1989 Spider Veloce (Julie) 1991 164L (Chris) 1991 Spider (Melissa)
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post #17 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-06-2015, 10:03 AM
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We road tripped to the 89 or 90 Chicago auto show to see the unveiling of the Diablo. Alfa or Zagato had an SZ there as well. Looked like a lunar lander then (even compared to the Diablo). Memory of it on the stand is still clear in my mind - many memories of that era aren't.

So yes - If I had 100 large with no other reason, I would consider buying an SZ
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84 Spider - Long gone, but started the addiction; 85 GTV6 - Current project, Supercharged, Mega Squirt; 88 Verde - "Milo" It has a name, must be a keeper
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post #18 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-06-2015, 10:37 AM
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If history is any teacher, the Zagato cars will decline in value for a while, then someone, or several, will realize there weren't very many of them and start bidding up the prices just because they are rare.

Name any Alfa over 50 years old with a production run of less than 200 (or even 1,000) that hasn't enjoyed an impressive gain in value.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #19 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-06-2015, 12:56 PM
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I think a well built GTV6 or Milano will give the same satisfaction behind the wheel at a fraction of the cost as it is essentially the same DNA. To the educated car buyer and the casual Alfista, this is obvious. Those going after the SZ and paying the tag are more likely to be in the collector camp it seems.

I haven't driven an SZ yet but have driven many sorted transaxle V6 cars - it's a comparison I'm eager to engage in. Of course details make the difference between good and great - the SZ was supposed to be the final say for that chassis... I could care less about the coil-over setup on the SZ, the brakes, etc. - if I could carry over one thing to the GTV6 or Milano it would be the improved rigidity of the body structure! The GTV6 and Milano are so soft out of the box.
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post #20 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-06-2015, 01:41 PM
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I own one and as much as I'd like to see these cars appreciate fast, 70k is as crazy as the car looks and as dumb as comparing it to an M3.

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Last edited by Maarten Bijlsma; 02-07-2015 at 03:23 AM.
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post #21 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-06-2015, 02:32 PM
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Yeah, I would think that someone importing one now and looking for $60 to $70K would have a pretty difficult time recovering their money. Difficult to imagine an SZ going above $50K over here until they get caught up in the collector market, but that might take awhile.

On the other hand, I would have no problem paying $45K for a good SZ if the family budget allowed. Attractive alternatives like the 4C or Cayman S would still have a good amount of depreciation in them at that price (granting an assumption re the 4C). Regardless, there's not a car for any price I'd rather have. I like handling and a sweet-sounding naturally-aspirated engine, I wouldn't know what to do with more HP without going to a track.
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post #22 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-07-2015, 07:13 AM
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You repeatedly seem to assert that M3s are an obvious choice over an older Alfa in the same price range. I've tried to convince myself to buy an E46 330 or M3 on several occasions over the years; the test drive reminds me of why I didn't bite the previous attempt. They feel heavy and too refined to me, at least compared to the transaxle Alfas. I also didn't want to think of what I'd have to pay when the VANOS needed repair, along with a myriad of other potentially-expensive pitfalls. Owned a 996 911 once. Boring at any speed that won't get you thrown in jail. Owned a Cayman S too. Preternatural handling but engine sounded like an exotic vacuum cleaner; you have to completely flog it to get a visceral growl out of it. I also went back to Alfa Spiders after having owned an S2000 and a Boxster. Just like Alfas over the alternatives and I would easily take an SZ over those other cars you mentioned. The engine, the handling, the look. It's no more just a Milano than a Cayman S is just a base Boxster, obviously. I have a friend who bought a 2012 911. Couldn't care less though I love Porsche; it's just, who cares; $100K worth of who cares (I think he even admires it more than enjoys it). If he got an SZ though, now that would be something worth noticing, and more fun for 95% of any driving a regular person might do on an American road.
This guy speaks the truth.
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Mike
82 Spider * 87 CX25 TRD * 89 Milano Verde * 89 Mondial t Coupe * 94 E420 * 01 M5
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post #23 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-07-2015, 09:04 PM
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Thanks but it comes off as being kind of critical of one person's opinion though that wasn't the intent. I was basically just trying to say that the opportunity cost of passing on other makes does not really figure into a the valuation of an Alfa for me, and I'd guess many others, especially cars like an '01 M3 or '02 911 Turbo which have so little in common with the SZ in question, or most any other Alfa sold over here. But, if you like those cars, and a SZ doesn't offer you something those cars don't have, then I suppose they'd matter when you're attaching a value to the SZ. Just wouldn't for me or most others I would think. Obvious stuff but I could have been more careful with the tone.
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Jim
Current: Black/tan '86 GTV6; Blue '87 Milano Plat; Blue/tan '76 Alfetta
Past: Opale/tan '84 GTV6; Red/tan '95 164Q; Silver '87 Spider Quad; Red/tan '91 Spider, Black/tan '91 Spider Veloce; Black/brown '83 Spider Veloce
Current non-Alfa: '03 White/tan 330i ZHP; Red/tan '98 Taurus SHO
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post #24 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-08-2015, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Rutlefan View Post
Yeah, I would think that someone importing one now and looking for $60 to $70K would have a pretty difficult time recovering their money. Difficult to imagine an SZ going above $50K over here until they get caught up in the collector market, but that might take awhile.

On the other hand, I would have no problem paying $45K for a good SZ if the family budget allowed.
Given the exchange rates, $45K seems to be a likely value in the US. $60 to $70K includes about $15 to $20 profit in addition to shipping fees, insurance and taxes. For that much, I could take a vacation in Euro land and purchase the car myself.
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post #25 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-08-2015, 10:17 PM
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$70k USD plus just sounds like a massive quick-rich scheme. I'd rather get a 75 EVO with* that money and something else for the other days I'm fixing it [because I actually drive it, not queen it]...

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post #26 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-08-2015, 11:17 PM
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Well, you won't find a GOOD SZ for 45K euro's here, so thats all a bit theoretical.

Add in shipping, dollar rate and all that and it WILL cost you 60 to 70 in the states I guess.
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post #27 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-09-2015, 03:04 AM
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Missing the point completely

I think many of the people posting in this thread are totally lost. To compare a SZ with modern BMW's and Porsches is missing the Point completely. Of course they are "better". The thing is that the SZ is a bespoke car built in very few numbers. 998 production cars to be exact. It was built by and has one of the most exotic names in Automotive history. "Zagato" I think you should take a look at how much other classic Zagato cars cost. Why not start with the SZ from the -60's. Is has the mechanicals from the Giulietta with a "sports suit", exactly the same as the SZ of the -90's, a 75 in "sports suit"
Look at Aston Zagatos, Ferrari and Maserati Zagatos. All are very very expensive. I can assure you that this car is destined to be an expensive collectors car in the not too distant future. This is not a performance car today. Any modern family estate is quicker. It is a very rare collectors car with a striking look. That everyone doesn't like it immediately adds to the desirability for me.
I just bought one based on the above argument. I don't know where you look for these cars for sale but since I have been monitoring this market very closely the last 3 months, I can give you a price estimate. Cheapest car I ever saw was priced at Euro 30`, it is now sold. The range seems to be between E40-65´and increasing. Before christmas there were a few low km cars for sale around E50´. Several are now gone, including mine. A couple of nice looking cars have come out on the market with a E60-65´price.
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post #28 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-09-2015, 06:01 AM
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^ I was hoping the price doesn't get out of control over here as I would really like one, but once a car's value increases to the point where it becomes a garage queen for fear of harm or mileage-driven depreciation (as happens with expensive collector cars) I lose interest in owning one. Assuming you are correct that is too bad as I love that car; wouldn't take any other car over it. As Tertullian might have said, what has Munich (or Stuttgart) to do with Milan? When the Zombie Apocalypse comes I'll worry about going exceeding fast; until then I just want the car to be fun, and it seems nothing is more fun than an SZ. I also love the love-it-or-hate-it styling. Hated it at first but when I finally took to it I fell hard. Never liked wedges before but the SZ is so over the top I find it irresistible. Congratulations on your purchase! I envy you. If I were to sell the family minivan and one of my two GTV6s I guess I could swing one but the wife would notice the absence of the minivan I expect. I'll just have to put my money into improving the GTV6s over time, which has its own appeal.

Jim
Current: Black/tan '86 GTV6; Blue '87 Milano Plat; Blue/tan '76 Alfetta
Past: Opale/tan '84 GTV6; Red/tan '95 164Q; Silver '87 Spider Quad; Red/tan '91 Spider, Black/tan '91 Spider Veloce; Black/brown '83 Spider Veloce
Current non-Alfa: '03 White/tan 330i ZHP; Red/tan '98 Taurus SHO
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post #29 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-09-2015, 06:33 AM
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^ I was hoping the price doesn't get out of control over here as I would really like one, but once a car's value increases to the point where it becomes a garage queen for fear of harm or mileage-driven depreciation (as happens with expensive collector cars) I lose interest in owning one. Assuming you are correct that is too bad as I love that car; wouldn't take any other car over it. As Tertullian might have said, what has Munich (or Stuttgart) to do with Milan? When the Zombie Apocalypse comes I'll worry about going exceeding fast; until then I just want the car to be fun, and it seems nothing is more fun than an SZ. I also love the love-it-or-hate-it styling. Hated it at first but when I finally took to it I fell hard. Never liked wedges before but the SZ is so over the top I find it irresistible. Congratulations on your purchase! I envy you. If I were to sell the family minivan and one of my two GTV6s I guess I could swing one but the wife would notice the absence of the minivan I expect. I'll just have to put my money into improving the GTV6s over time, which has its own appeal.
2014 was a record year when it comes to price increase for Classic cars. I believe the SZ's time is still ahead since it is "new" to be a Classic.
I am involved in Classic Maseratis as well. The prices on 60's-70's Maseratis has gone totaly crazy in just one year. This is one of the reason for me buying a SZ. The Maseratis I want are simply too expensive now. I sold my Khamsin a Little over a year ago. Stupid, stupid mistake since the car has more than doubled its value since. There are actually several similarities between the SZ and the Khamsin. Both have been undervalued for a long time. Both have "challenging" looks, maybe the Khamsin a Little less so. But I know for a fact that everyone doesn't Think it is pretty. Hard for me to understand though. I'm willing to bet that the SZ is a E100' car within a few years. Anyone Thinks otherwise?
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post #30 of 197 (permalink) Old 02-09-2015, 09:14 AM Thread Starter
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Excellent discussion, thank you Gentlemen.
As to the get rich quick scheme, not really.
Most of the cars for "sale" now in Europe are either sold, or if you contact the seller, the price will be higher than the ad. Plus, god forbid, you say it is going to the US !!
Good ones are now 50- 60 on average in Europe, so with shipping, exchange rate, paperwork that works, the price gets up there.
As I was just testing the water, I see that the US Alfa 'public' is not inclined to accept the car at the price I mentioned, though some of you did say you admired them, most were disparaging of its looks and performance for the money.
I also, was a bit put off by its look when I first saw one at the Toronto Alfa Convention, but like others folks, it grew on me. But, as I am a rather hardcore GTV6 Fanatic, I was intrigued by a more modern V6 transaxle Alfa. They are a rare car, by one of the greatest design houses of all time, so the potential growth of value is there in my opinion.
I don't think I will go forward at this time with partnering on one, though I suspect I will kick myself in the near future.
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