90° valve inclination in Alfa Romeo engine - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 05:05 PM Thread Starter
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90° valve inclination in Alfa Romeo engine

During 1956 Alfa produced two Prototypes based on 750 project, with intention to participate in Sport class with 1500 engine. It was in collaboration with Abarth (chassis) and Boano (body). Engine was 1315 Giulietta 1300 based, increased to 1500, valve angle was 90°, and engine produced 145 HP at 8000 revs. For more information about this car, contact Centro Documentazione.

“Nel 1956 ne fu prodotto un prototipo destinato alle competizioni denominato 750 Competizione. Realizzato da Carlo Abarth, il mezzo face parte di un progetto segreto mirato a riportare l’Alfa Romeo nell'ambito delle competizioni riservate a vetture sport. Come propulsore venne scelta una versione potenziata a 1500 cc del motore da 1300 cc che equipaggiava la Giulietta, mentre il telaio avvolto da una carrozzeria in configurazione barchetta realizzato da Boano era in lamiera scatolata. Il progetto non arrivò mai ad un'effettiva produzione di serie in quanto parte della dirigenza della casa del biscione si oppose al ritorno nelle competizioni per timore che tale operazione sottraesse uomini e materiali cruciali per lo sviluppo delle vetture di serie.
Per l'eventuale partecipazione alle gare Sport della Classe 1500 cc. Alfa prepara un motore di 1488 cc. a 4 cilindri e con Alesaggio di 76 mm. e Corsa di 82 mm .
--Monoblocco e testa in Lega Leggera.
-Compressione 10:1 -Potenza di 145 Cv. a 8000 giri.
-2 assi a camme con VALVOLE INCLINATE A 90°.
-Diametro valvola aspirazione 35 mm. ed allo scarico di 31 mm. -DOPPIA ACCENSIONE.
-Carburatori 2 Doppio Corpo orizzontali Weber.
-Radiatore olio.
-Cambio a 5 marce.
-Sospensioni anteriori = Ruote indipendenti bracci trasversali-molla elicoidale.
-Sospensioni post. = Ad Assale Rigido-braccio longitudinale- stabilizzatore a T e molla elicoidale.
-Freni a tamburo.
-Peso 690 Kg.
-Velocita' max 220 Km/h.
Questa vettura nasce da un accordo tra l'Alfa e Cari Abarth infatti il telaio in lamiera d'acciaio saldata fu proprio realizzato da C. Abarth e la carrozzeria fu disegnata da Boano.”

Another observation. There is no and there was not (ever) something like North (or Nord, or anything else) engine in the history of Alfa Romeo factory, from 1910 until today. Use of such expression is incorrect.
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 05:43 PM
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"Nord" is incorrect only if someone appointed you emperor of language, both standard and colloquial. It is considered entirely reasonable in English to incorporate, borrow, or fabricate terms terms if it improves the efficiency of our language. Thus, there was never a Spanish word "hamburqueso", but in Texas we understand that to be a cheeseburger, and you'd be considered rude and pushy if you told the locals they were not using language correctly.

I was working for an Alfa dealer when the Sud was introduced, and "Milano" was dropped from the badge. From that point onward we just referred to them as either "Alfas", or "those new $hitboxes from southern Italy". Since this was considered polite language within the dealership shop, but not so much on the new car sales floor, the term "Nord" was adopted to clarify what we were speaking about, but without alienating potential car buyers.

It's a perfectly legit term, because we say so.

Don P
Carson City, NV

Past Alfas...
59 102 Touring (first Alfa $500 running)
65 Sprint GT (2nd Alfa, $500 daily driver)
102 Sprint (never did anything with it, but wish I had)
74 Berlina (first new car - now certainly rusted into oblivion)
61 Giulietta Spider G-Prod Race Car (where is it now?)
84 Spider Veloce (rarely drove it, so sold it)
86 Quadrifoglio (Dull car - no more 115s for me)
1971 Montreal "The Full Monty". Fair winds and following seas

Current Alfas
59 102 Touring Roadster - restoration complete, enough Alfa for any rational man. Or irrational, for that matter
And past...
Two 1946 Stampe SV4C (c/n 294 "Rocinante" - wife's favorite airplane. RIP), and c/n 235 "La Bon Temps Femme" (gone to a new home, but never forgotten)
Zlin 50LA (+9 -6 gees, titanium spar, 1200 lbs, 260HP rumored to now be in Brazil)
1946 Luscombe 8A
Starduster Too (recently spotted at the Nevada City, CA airport - over 20 years and an entire continent separating it from our stewardship in Binghamton, NY)
1955 Cessna 170B (wife taught me to fly tailwheel in this)

And present...
64 Mooney M20E ("Rambo". My faithful steed for over 30 years) Nearly 50 years old, and just returned from a trip to Argentina in him
Newest in the fleet
1967 Piper Super Cub on Wipline amphibious floats (a true "all terrain vehicle")
2010 Triumph Thunderbird


You can snap roll an Alfa only one time...
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 06:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARGTAReg View Post
Another observation. There is no and there was not (ever) something like North (or Nord, or anything else) engine in the history of Alfa Romeo factory, from 1910 until today. Use of such expression is incorrect.
Since official Alfa Romeo USA documents from 1972 refer to "Nord" engines/cars (top left corner in attached TSB), your statement appears to be at least partially incorrect.

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-Ruedi
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ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).

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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARGTAReg View Post
During 1956 Alfa produced two Prototypes based on 750 project, with intention to participate in Sport class with 1500 engine. It was in collaboration with Abarth (chassis) and Boano (body). Engine was 1315 Giulietta 1300 based, increased to 1500, valve angle was 90°, and engine produced 145 HP at 8000 revs. For more information about this car, contact Centro Documentazione.
The data presented in the post pretty much corresponds with what Fusi wrote in "Tutte le Vetture" (see pages below). It must have been fun to see and hear the car outside. What was the occasion?

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-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
Maintainer of a private 2600 SZ register (not the one in the Netherlands).
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 09:13 PM
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Mr. P was reading my statement about 90 degrees valve angle it seems, but I'd bet some money to have dismantled the shown proto engine (or even the valve cover !) and to prove it's cylinder head does not use a 90 degree valve angle though. It's a quite simply logical point of view when having a look on that pics, too. But maybe Mr P can create a cross section drawing on PS which will prove all his vast technical knowledge. ;-)

But, as I've referred in my statement to a 105 Nord engine only which in Alfa speech is fully correct but some people simply seem not to have knowledge about.

Latest with the introduction of the Alfasud the 'Nord' diversion term was officially used; AR of America surely did not use that term on their own behalf.

Repeating typo errors will not make facts correct. Even not after decades.

R.I.P. Alfa Romeo 1910 - 1986. 1987---> Badge engineering since then.

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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-17-2017, 09:44 PM
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The engine of 750 Competizione
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 12:49 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubut View Post
Since official Alfa Romeo USA documents from 1972 refer to "Nord" engines/cars (top left corner in attached TSB), your statement appears to be at least partially incorrect.

Attachment 1242914
Let us avoid misunderstanding. Until used to distinguish one of Alfa Romeo different, separate and independent industrial realities, Alfa Sud at Pomigliano d’Arco and Alfa Nord at Portello first and Arese later, terms “Nord” and “Sud” are not only correct, they are welcome. They are geographic determination for different plants. In that sense the document that you have posted is paradigmatic. However, when you start to name in familiar mood mechanical components like Nord engine, Sud-Est gearbox or East front suspension, it starts to sound ridiculous. However, the right to call them in whatever way you need, even in Sanskrit or Swahili, remains. The 750 Competizione in question made few laps at Balocco in 2014 producing beautiful sound. It is the part of Arese collection, and of course, Luigi Fusi has described it correctly.
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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-18-2017, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ARGTAReg View Post
Let us avoid misunderstanding. Until used to distinguish one of Alfa Romeo different, separate and independent industrial realities, Alfa Sud at Pomigliano d’Arco and Alfa Nord at Portello first and Arese later, terms “Nord” and “Sud” are not only correct, they are welcome. They are geographic determination for different plants. In that sense the document that you have posted is paradigmatic. However, when you start to name in familiar mood mechanical components like Nord engine, Sud-Est gearbox or East front suspension, it starts to sound ridiculous. However, the right to call them in whatever way you need, even in Sanskrit or Swahili, remains. The 750 Competizione in question made few laps at Balocco in 2014 producing beautiful sound. It is the part of Arese collection, and of course, Luigi Fusi has described it correctly.
Since "Nord" is a German word, let's blame the Germans.
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-Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (AR 191437, the car that started the 2000/2600 International Register, reassembly in progress)
ex-'65 2600 SZ (AR 856043, now a restomod in Austria)
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 01:02 AM
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I assume the 1300 Giulietta engine is quite similar to the one in my 1750 and therefore based on those photos of the prototype 750 Competizione is very different to a "Nord" or the Giulietta engine. I guess this happens when they start somewhere and go from there ...

Pete

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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 07:05 AM Thread Starter
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You guess well. The head was new design (twin plug in 55-56!) with all other tuning touches (oil pump, crankshaft, pistons and so on…) that produced serious 145 HP from 1500 cc. Pity that project was abandoned because of the dullness of the IRI people…
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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 09:01 AM
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750 was abandoned because of very soft Abarth chassis. When they made it stiffer, it gained weight. So that the car was uncompetitive against OSCA 1500.
Two cars were made, the second one one the pictures, was restored in the early 80s. The style of the car is not original. The first one, with original body style, is still in the underground of the Museum, just a bare body, without engine and suspensions

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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
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Yes, pretty much of what you stated, though the space for improvement was abundant. OSCA was serious concurrency with its Maserati appeal, but it was mainly the decision not to invest (state) money in active racing programs. The shape is more-less the one produced by Boano though you are right that some “new solutions” were practiced. Here is the original (and Abarth chassis) in the period photo…
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 11:55 AM
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As I remember 750 was made for private racing proposes, not for the factory program. However I can be wrong, hard to find a proof due to the lack of reliable source of information (in our case Archivio Storico papers). I will check Alfavelate book today tomorrow, should be something about the car.

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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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As I remember 750 was made for private racing proposes, not for the factory program. However I can be wrong, hard to find a proof due to the lack of reliable source of information (in our case Archivio Storico papers). I will check Alfavelate book today tomorrow, should be something about the car.

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There is enough documentary material about 750 C Boano. Ivan Scelsa (good driver and well-known historian of Alfa Romeo sport cars), dedicated some important essays about this model. Here is part of his text that explains the short and unfortunate story of 750 C.

“La scocca portante in lamiera d’acciaio rinforzata con strutture tubolari appare fin da subito leggera, ma ancora troppo elastica e flessibile per rendere la vettura competitiva: il tecnici Alfa provvedono all’irrobustimento, purtroppo causando un notevole aggravio di peso. D’altra parte il propulsore, profondamente evoluto con valvole maggiorate e disposte a 90°, eroga ben 145 CV (pur con un erogazione molto brusca) e permette una velocità massima di 225 Km/h. La carrozzeria, dalla linea filante ma inconsueta, è anch’essa disegnata a Torino, questa volta da Boano.
I problemi di sviluppo rallentano molto la gestazione dei due prototipi assemblati e la produzione di una piccola serie di vetture da destinare anche ai clienti sportivi viene interrotta per concentrare tutte le energie sulla produzione della Giulietta e sullo sviluppo di nuove versioni stradali. Uno degli esemplari verrà successivamente revisionato e restaurato per essere esposto nel Museo di Arese.”

The project was born in the minds of Servizio Esperienze, as a temptation to return to serious racing. There, in Portello’s project studios, Satta and Busso were capable to project any type of car. The board of the management (IRI) showed the strong opposition from the beginning, moved by idea that Alfa should concentrate to mass production models, only eventually involved in competitions, and without proper racing sector. However, the project started as internal Alfa Romeo affair without external request of any client. The necessity to produce specific chassis involved Carlo Abarth that proposed (and produced) the sophisticated design using a boxed pressed steel platform construction, which together with the lightened steel body formed a reasonably stiff unit. Meanwhile, the Alfa Romeo engineers elaborated the engine that was Giulietta based four cylinder with slightly wider bore and notably longer stroke. The result was impressive 1488 cc, twin Weber carbs alimented engine that produced 145 bhp at 8000 rpm, mated to a five-speed gearbox. Inherited from the Giulietta, was also double wishbones suspension at the front and a live axle at the rear.
As you have already mentioned correctly, two prototypes were built. They were extensively tested and there was precise developing plan but they were never raced, nor involved in any form of competition. Among the reasons for this decision were problems during testing, noted weakness of the chassis (you also pointed that) and fear to expose the (excellent in itself) project to the concurrency. The eventual fiasco would be too negative mark for the success of the production based Alfa Romeos on the tracks. Though OSCA 1500 car was also only project (never realized as a racing car, and finished in FIAT 1500 Spider), based on the success of 750S, it was clear that Maserati was ahead with experience, and their eventual model would be too serious competitor to beat. Therefore, the company's determination to continue its focus on mass-produced models prevailed and 750 C Boano finished its course before the real start. Both examples have survived and at least one is in full running order. It bears chassis number AR 1369.00003, and differs distinctly from the car's original design, (also noted in your post) which had the headlights mounted in the grille, as usually Boano’s cars had in that period. It is not sure whether this is original or the second car restyled. Today it is the part of the Alfa Romeo Museo Storico.
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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 02:16 PM
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I should have both chassis numbers and some photos of the body from the underground of the Museum. I think I have more information in Giuseppe Busso book, probably some info in Domenico Chirico book and his articles about history of development of AR engines. The project is well known, should not be a problem.
Thanks for the sharing the info you have, interesting stuff

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