10-11-2007, 01:43 PM
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OK,
here goes.
I have ALL of the aforementioned books, including allegerita and Fusi.
We have one in the workshop. I will not disclose whose, chassis numbers etc. The car belongs to a well known collector.
What have I noticed:
chassisnumber is indeed TI Super according to paperwork and Fusi.
Engine is not original, original engine with owner.
Dunlop disc brakes.
All the TI super outward stuff there.
This car runs TZ wheels.
Brake booster added somewhere in the past, not originally there.
Dash and seats etc TI Super.
Bumpers TI super.
ONE sun visor, driver only, no other was ever fitted.
In the pics in the museum I see two....
I have old quattroruote magazines which show disc brakes.
Body sheet metal; standard.
Sound isolation absent, sound deadening absent. lightweight seats, door panels etc. No undercoating. Yet so WHERE did they get 80 kilos?
If we are to restore this car to concours it will be a hell of a job...
It was raced extensively in period, and it shows.....
thank you for all your comments!
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10-11-2007, 07:42 PM
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by Seinista
Sound isolation absent, sound deadening absent. lightweight seats, door panels etc. No undercoating. Yet so WHERE did they get 80 kilos?
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Other pieces that are lighter/deleted:
column shift linkage
under dash handbrake w/ heavy bit on steering box
glove box lid
passenger grab handle
rear window winders (on some)
tubular headers
aluminum side window trim
footwell air vents and associated steel body structure
magnesium wheels
inner headlights deleted
The dual carb set-up added weight, but for homologation some of the heavier bits like oil cooler and limited slip would not have been on the cars. Finally, white cars tend to be a bit lighter than other colors.
I don't buy the thinner steel panel story either, but there a definitely some cars w/ aluminum doors and lids. According to an owner and expert on these cars, part of the production was equipped in this manner with an overall number definitely below 100 - how many below is another question.
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10-11-2007, 11:15 PM
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getting there, aren't we, more and more info coming in.
Cool!
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10-12-2007, 02:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Csank
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 1998 09:42:41 EST
From: JHertzman@aol.com
Subject: T.I., T.I. Super, and Super
[..]
The Duetto Veloce and GT Veloce had 109 CV, the Giulia Sprint
Specials had 112 CV and the T.I had 115, the same as the "street" version of
the GTA which had an identical listed top speed, 185 km/h. Odd numbers, if
d'A-T is correct the only difference between the T.I. and "customer" GTA
engines is the number of spark plugs. |
Otherwise, if one wants to go down to the latest detail differenciating the TI Super from the TI or the Super, the only way is checking parts numbers on the parts catalogue. Even so, since not all cars were exactly identical (see the quoted sun visors for an example), my opinion is that beyond a certain point, such a search is pointless.
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10-12-2007, 08:19 AM
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Didn't at least one of the TI Supers actually have a twin-plug GTA motor stuffed in it "in period"?
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10-12-2007, 08:27 AM
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I have read/heard over and over that as development mules for the GTA they tested a lot of their components. I wouldn't be surprised. Wive's tale?
Andrew
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10-12-2007, 08:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
Didn't at least one of the TI Supers actually have a twin-plug GTA motor stuffed in it "in period"?
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10-13-2007, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtv2000
Yes it did. There's a pic of a GTA engine to be found in some books, where no one ever noticed in the caption that the engine bay is self evidently a TI one, not a Bertone.
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Here the problem is not the identification of the engine bay as the book is dedicated to the Giulia Berlina but the engine itself: The picture is described as 'the SS engine under the bonnet of the berlina...' 
This GTA prototype engine was remarkable on some aspects:
- It was fitted with 2 camshaft driven distributors, in the manner of later 'twinspark' engine (Alfa 164), neat and nice compared to the twin point dizzy which was choosed finally. Look at the briliant routing of the HT wires !!
- The throttle command was linked on the top of the carbs ('under the carbs' solution was retained finally)
- They removed the carb jet covers to save weight (hence the 80 Kg....)
Later , racers put GTA engines in Ti Super body, but I'm in doubt that some Ti Super were fitted with Twin plug engines originally from factory. Any evidence or document to give a clue ???
I'm ready to bet that the car pictured with the GTA proto engine shows a 105.14 ID plate rather than a 105.16....
I also have pics of Ti Super fitted with drum brakes and steel wheels, and the first prototypes that were introduced to press in 1963 (Monza) were fitted with 4 headlights (probably original 'stock' Ti body, no weight saving here)
regards
Sébastien
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Last edited by sprint750; 10-13-2007 at 05:44 PM.
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10-13-2007, 06:41 PM
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Trogdor the Burninator
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Excellent info! This thread is turning into a very good source of reference for the TI Super.
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Cheers,
Alex Csank
Chair, Alfa Century 2010 - The AROC USA ALFA Centennial Convention
E-mail: alfaromeodriver@cox.net or alfacentury2010@gmail.com
Mobile: (757) 636-9513
82 Spider Veloce (Desideria - Kathleen's)
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"My name is Alex and I am an Alfaholic."
Alfisti are always welcome in our home!
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10-13-2007, 06:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sprint750
This GTA prototype engine was remarkable on some aspects:
- It was fitted with 2 camshaft driven distributors, in the manner of later 'twinspark' engine (Alfa 164), neat and nice compared to the twin point dizzy which was choosed finally. Look at the briliant routing of the HT wires !!
- The throttle command was linked on the top of the carbs ('under the carbs' solution was retained finally)
- They removed the carb jet covers to save weight (hence the 80 Kg....)
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10-14-2007, 12:52 AM
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What I do see is that it will be very difficult to restore this TI Super back to stock factory, in a condition that it will be awarded high points at a concours.
Then again, which judge WILL know what is or is not as it is supposed to be...
Hard one , this...
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10-14-2007, 12:53 AM
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BTW the HT lead solution is typical Italian exotic of the time. See older Ferrari's...
But it sure looks cool. Anyone daring to fabricate this on his TS engined 105?
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10-15-2007, 12:03 AM
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The Giulia with the twin plug engine was not built by Alfa Romeo nor Autodelta and it was no TIS.
It was a prepared Giulia TI equipped with a double ignition head by Romeo Ferraris and Gianfranco Zanoli of Autosalone Massimo at Milano. It was featured in Auto Italiana 28/1963 of July, 7th, and tested in Auto Italiana 33-34/1963 from August, 22th. It reached 203 km/h, 0-100 km/h in 8,1 sec and 0-1000m in 29.2 sec; max rev was given at 8000 rpm.
The picture of the engine bay and the wrong text in the Giulia book came from those photo shots. In the first feature it had four mesh wired holes instead of the front lights, in the test 4 standard lights.
Last edited by martinue; 10-15-2007 at 12:13 AM.
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10-15-2007, 03:29 AM
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Thanks. In the 50s and 60s, it was virtually impossible for Americans to get ANY of the Italian or French car magazines. In many places in the US, it's still that way.
I don't know a single place in the US that carries Routeclassiche, for example....and a 10 issue subscription is over 100 Euros! Same for Auto d'Epoca or La Manovella |
10-15-2007, 04:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinue
The Giulia with the twin plug engine was not built by Alfa Romeo nor Autodelta and it was no TIS.
It was a prepared Giulia TI equipped with a double ignition head by Romeo Ferraris and Gianfranco Zanoli of Autosalone Massimo at Milano. It was featured in Auto Italiana 28/1963 of July, 7th, and tested in Auto Italiana 33-34/1963 from August, 22th. It reached 203 km/h, 0-100 km/h in 8,1 sec and 0-1000m in 29.2 sec; max rev was given at 8000 rpm.
The picture of the engine bay and the wrong text in the Giulia book came from those photo shots. In the first feature it had four mesh wired holes instead of the front lights, in the test 4 standard lights.
Attachment 81275 |
Another question: Was there pics of the interior. I'lm very interested to know if the car kept his column shift or was converted to floorshift. Any other significant mods except the engine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprint750
Later , racers put GTA engines in Ti Super body, but I'm in doubt that some Ti Super were fitted with Twin plug engines originally from factory. Any evidence or document to give a clue ???
I'm ready to bet that the car pictured with the GTA proto engine shows a 105.14 ID plate rather than a 105.16....
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I should have bet real $$$ !!!
Thank you Martinue for your accurate and clear information (as usual... )
Thanks
Sébastien
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