01-25-2007, 01:48 AM
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Dear all,
In my opinion, these Alfa Romeo SVZ's are absolutely beautiful pieces of work - art - in the 'same mold' as the SZ, TZ1 and TZ2 and possibly the FERRARI 250 GTO.
While in South Africa I followed the extensive, 'ground up' restoration of TZ1, chassis #017 by BB Car Restorers in Wynberg, Johannesburg between 1980 and 1985. This car was owned by Gary Dunkerley and Mervyn Middlewick at that point in time. This restoration was an absolutely 'gigantic' task as the car had many parts missing, or damaged beyond repair due to modifications or damage during its racing life on the South African circuits. I 'spent a lot of time with this car' but do not have photographs of it or have misplaced any I had. This car was subsequently sold to a person in Germany in about 2000, via 'dealers' in England, and I believe it is still there. It would be 'good' to see photographs of this car if any BB members have any.
On the subject of the SVZ's, Davie de Villiers of Glenwood Motors, Pretoria and Walter Rossi, also in Pretoria South Africa 'scoured', the Southern African countryside, collected, repaired/restored SVZ's and sold many to people in Germany via a Mr Schumacher of Classic-Auto-Tecchnic Gmbh in Bonn, Germany. Again if any BB members have any information/photographs on any of these vehicles it would be a pleasure to see it.
In about 1980 I considerd the purchase of SZ chassis #00108 from David Cohen in Johannesburg, South Africa. At that point in time it did not seem to be a feasable purchase/project as it needed a 'lot' of work and money as it had many non original items on it and was substantially modified. Again it would be 'good' to see photographs of this car if any BB memers have any.
I have posted a photograph of SZ #00108 that I have, on another thread on this site, but cannot find any of TZ1 #017 and would find it interesting to see photographs of these two cars during their lives prior to and after the 1980 era.
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01-26-2007, 12:41 PM
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by South Africa
On the subject of the SVZ's, Davie de Villiers of Glenwood Motors, Pretoria and Walter Rossi, also in Pretoria South Africa 'scoured', the Southern African countryside, collected, repaired/restored SVZ's and sold many to people in Germany via a Mr Schumacher of Classic-Auto-Tecchnic Gmbh in Bonn, Germany. Again if any BB members have any information/photographs on any of these vehicles it would be a pleasure to see it.
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01-27-2007, 10:39 AM
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Dear Martin,
I have recently joined the AlfaBB and I am very interested in this thread about the SVZ.
I am a member of the Dutch Giulietta Register and have met Adrian Smits (author of several articles about the SVZ in the Giuliettaletta and Het Klaverblaadje) several times.
After his last publication, two years ago, a lot of new information is now available and it took some time to study the information from the AlfaBB. Here some remarks from my side.
post#71 #01849 SVZ of Ada Pace
The information about an unrestored Sprint is wrong. In march 2006 this car was for sale at Jan Steutel in Holland.I was interested in buying this car but it went to Italy. It is a Sprint Normale with chassis # 01840 and engine # 1821.
#04069
The production date of this car is 22.3.1956. Egidio Gorza participated in the Giro di Sicilia 14.4.1956. Was Zagato able to build a body in 3 weeks time?
Gino Giugno in his book La Targa Florio della Giulietta suggests that car #01613 (also owned by Gorza) participated.
post#16 #04458
At this moment for sale in Italy and also offered by the company Italparts in Holland. This is not # 1493 04458, it is a recreation. I have received some pictures and one of these pictures shows # 01495 04458. A Spider chassis?
post #29 SVZ Edgar Berney
In Antoine Kohlers book Biographie 50 Ans Giulietta are two pictures of this yellow car with dark stripe across the bonnet. Here we can clearly see the petrol filler cap.
The picture at Spa does not show this stripe. Is the car in the picture of post #29 (Nürburgring 1959) really the Berney car? The colour looks different and it has again a dark stripe across the bonnet.
post#24 unknown SVZ
Also a double bubble car?
A lot of questions are still open. Does anyone know something about the SVZ of Jean Rolland - Gabriel Augias and Gino Munaron?
Peter
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01-27-2007, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK
Dear Martin,
I have recently joined the AlfaBB and I am very interested in this thread about the SVZ.
I am a member of the Dutch Giulietta Register and have met Adrian Smits (author of several articles about the SVZ in the Giuliettaletta and Het Klaverblaadje) several times.
After his last publication, two years ago, a lot of new information is now available and it took some time to study the information from the AlfaBB. Here some remarks from my side.
post#71 #01849 SVZ of Ada Pace
The information about an unrestored Sprint is wrong. In march 2006 this car was for sale at Jan Steutel in Holland.I was interested in buying this car but it went to Italy. It is a Sprint Normale with chassis # 01840 and engine # 1821.
#04069
The production date of this car is 22.3.1956. Egidio Gorza participated in the Giro di Sicilia 14.4.1956. Was Zagato able to build a body in 3 weeks time?
Gino Giugno in his book La Targa Florio della Giulietta suggests that car #01613 (also owned by Gorza) participated.
post#16 #04458
At this moment for sale in Italy and also offered by the company Italparts in Holland. This is not # 1493 04458, it is a recreation. I have received some pictures and one of these pictures shows # 01495 04458. A Spider chassis?
post #29 SVZ Edgar Berney
In Antoine Kohlers book Biographie 50 Ans Giulietta are two pictures of this yellow car with dark stripe across the bonnet. Here we can clearly see the petrol filler cap.
The picture at Spa does not show this stripe. Is the car in the picture of post #29 (Nürburgring 1959) really the Berney car? The colour looks different and it has again a dark stripe across the bonnet.
post#24 unknown SVZ
Also a double bubble car?
A lot of questions are still open. Does anyone know something about the SVZ of Jean Rolland - Gabriel Augias and Gino Munaron?
Peter
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01-27-2007, 04:49 PM
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Peter. First of , Welcome to the AlfaBB forum.
about your observation. Do you have pictures of the car when it was in holland, since I only posted what was reply to me by the owner.
here is his email to me about that car # 01849
"Caro Giuseppe,I just come back from my Christmass holidays.TYo you all my answers.
the car was a sprint veloce the same Ada Pace i ,my car i think was probably in a race, and partialy destroy in the back and much in the front.The doors,the hood and the truck were replaced with normale parts.All the front was again destroied from the rust.In the last pictures i sent to you,you can see now the new front placed with an new old spare buy from Diego Carrara before he died some years ago by a great friend of mine who lives near Vicenza.The correct alluminium doors,truck, hood and bumpers will'be rebuilding from a famous vintage shop in Modena,called il lastraio.
The car is absolutely original,the Vin is AR1493E01849 and the engine block is AR1315*30046,in these days i restored (polished and repainted) also its own original alliminium and iron license plates (front and rear) TO 205398.
Luca
[quote=PeterK;309032]Dear Martin,
I have recently joined the AlfaBB and I am very interested in this thread about the SVZ.
I am a member of the Dutch Giulietta Register and have met Adrian Smits (author of several articles about the SVZ in the Giuliettaletta and Het Klaverblaadje) several times.
After his last publication, two years ago, a lot of new information is now available and it took some time to study the information from the AlfaBB. Here some remarks from my side.
post#71 #01849 SVZ of Ada Pace
The information about an unrestored Sprint is wrong. In march 2006 this car was for sale at Jan Steutel in Holland.I was interested in buying this car but it went to Italy. It is a Sprint Normale with chassis # 01840 and engine # 1821.
__________________
57 Giulietta sprint
58 Giulietta spider Veloce(gone)
03 Silverado 2500HD
91 BMW 325 I
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01-27-2007, 06:30 PM
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[quote=Joseph;309158]Peter. First of , Welcome to the AlfaBB forum.
about your observation. Do you have pictures of the car when it was in holland, since I only posted what was reply to me by the owner.
here is his email to me about that car # 01849
"Caro Giuseppe,I just come back from my Christmass holidays.TYo you all my answers.
the car was a sprint veloce the same Ada Pace i ,my car i think was probably in a race, and partialy destroy in the back and much in the front.The doors,the hood and the truck were replaced with normale parts.All the front was again destroied from the rust.In the last pictures i sent to you,you can see now the new front placed with an new old spare buy from Diego Carrara before he died some years ago by a great friend of mine who lives near Vicenza.The correct alluminium doors,truck, hood and bumpers will'be rebuilding from a famous vintage shop in Modena,called il lastraio.
The car is absolutely original,the Vin is AR1493E01849 and the engine block is AR1315*30046,in these days i restored (polished and repainted) also its own original alliminium and iron license plates (front and rear) TO 205398.
Luca
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK
Dear Martin,
I have recently joined the AlfaBB and I am very interested in this thread about the SVZ.
I am a member of the Dutch Giulietta Register and have met Adrian Smits (author of several articles about the SVZ in the Giuliettaletta and Het Klaverblaadje) several times.
After his last publication, two years ago, a lot of new information is now available and it took some time to study the information from the AlfaBB. Here some remarks from my side.
post#71 #01849 SVZ of Ada Pace
The information about an unrestored Sprint is wrong. In march 2006 this car was for sale at Jan Steutel in Holland.I was interested in buying this car but it went to Italy. It is a Sprint Normale with chassis # 01840 and engine # 1821.
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I think the main point in regard to 1849 is that it is not, nor has it ever been Zagato bodied. See posts #70 and #71.
Last edited by dretceterini; 01-27-2007 at 07:02 PM.
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01-28-2007, 12:32 AM
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Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 2,633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterK
#04069
The production date of this car is 22.3.1956. Egidio Gorza participated in the Giro di Sicilia 14.4.1956. Was Zagato able to build a body in 3 weeks time?
Gino Giugno in his book La Targa Florio della Giulietta suggests that car #01613 (also owned by Gorza) participated.
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__________________
Ruedi
'63 2600 Touring Spider (apart)
'65 2600 SZ (resto project)
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01-28-2007, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubut
I cannot comment on this car specifically, but I would like to share some insights based on my research on the 105 Alfa 2600 SZ cars produced: It appears the date recorded in Alfa archives as production dates for Zagato cars is NOT the date that cars were produced at Zagato. The unofficial information I have indicates cars were consigned by Zagato to Alfa up to 3 months earlier than the production date recorded by Alfa. I don't want to enter into speculations about the WHY this might be the case, but point out that the 3 weeks mentioned between #04069's production date and being entered into the Giro di Sicilia is plausible to me.
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PS: Please comment on the Giulietta Targa Florio book, as no one here in the US has it. Is it worth the 60+ Euro price?
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01-28-2007, 09:44 AM
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Joseph,
I don't have pictures of this car.
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01-28-2007, 09:48 AM
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I think it is a worthwhile purchase. It starts with 1956 and finishing in1966, it shows photos of every Giulietta variant to have taken part in the Targa Florio. Most of the cars shown are documented by chassis number and registration number.
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01-28-2007, 10:05 AM
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License plate
Peter .
What do you think about the owner having the "original license plate.
TO 205398". meaning it was register in Torino(Turin)
it is the same as the miniature car 1/43 of Ada Pace.? also the vin number you provide is not the same as the stamping on the car, and the engine which he has, I was told# AR1315*30046.
Also what make you think this is the same car. by the picture I posted you can see that it was red originaly,
__________________
57 Giulietta sprint
58 Giulietta spider Veloce(gone)
03 Silverado 2500HD
91 BMW 325 I
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01-29-2007, 03:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubut
I cannot comment on this car specifically, but I would like to share some insights based on my research on the 105 Alfa 2600 SZ cars produced: It appears the date recorded in Alfa archives as production dates for Zagato cars is NOT the date that cars were produced at Zagato. The unofficial information I have indicates cars were consigned by Zagato to Alfa up to 3 months earlier than the production date recorded by Alfa. I don't want to enter into speculations about the WHY this might be the case, but point out that the 3 weeks mentioned between #04069's production date and being entered into the Giro di Sicilia is plausible to me.
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But as far as SVZs are concerned, the official Alfa date of manufacture/sale has to be quite before the first appearance of the Zagato bodied thing, since it was first delivered a sa complete SV then stripped and rebodied. Zagato has issued official documents, to be found in Hugues/da Prato among others, where they declared 60 days as the time needed for rebodying an SV, and that ties with documented single cases.
It is thus unlikely that a car could compete in Zagato form only 3 weeks after its release as a Bertone SV.
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01-29-2007, 05:38 AM
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Regarding Ada Pace it could be interesting to have the data on the cars that she ran at the Mille Miglia as well other SVZ, does anyone have the book "Giulietta Targa Florio book" and have a possibility to post the info.
In the 1958 Trieste-Opicina Hillclimb Ada Pace had a first place in a Alfa Romeo Giulietta Z, maybe her first race in a SVZ.
Ada Pace raced different cars in 1961 Stallavena-Boscochiesanouva she started under the name "Sayonora" together with Massimo Leto di Priolo and "Kim" Sergio Pedretti all in a GSZ, i supose it was the new official SZ from Alfa Romeo.
She participated in the 47th Targa Florio 1963 Abarth-Simca 1300 Bialbero, Signorina Ada Pace had a DNF
Regarding delivery times
#04069
The production date of this car is 22.3.1956. Egidio Gorza participated in the Giro di Sicilia 14.4.1956. Was Zagato able to build a body in 3 weeks time?
Gino Giugno in his book La Targa Florio della Giulietta suggests that car #01613 (also owned by Gorza) participated.
There is other examples of very fast productions of new bodies in 3 weeks or less. But at this time, it was the custom to have an repair body don by Zagato. And di Priol (chassis 01944) was the first SVZ to have an rebodied car,it was in 1956.
Mr Abate presented his SVZ during MM 1957. The Gorza was first presented in 1957, in the same design as the Abate car, se post 14-55.
So I would expect that Mr Gorza participation in Giro di Sicilia 14.4.1956 must have been in a "normal" Bertone bodied car
George J: has privies pointed out that there is similarity in the Zagato design of the Lancia and the Alfa Romeo. There should have been examples of Mounting SVZ bodies on Lancia chassis, just to make the confusion complete.
Regarding Joseph: I post a picture of Francesco De Leonis SVZ with the registration number 205398 TO, i will be of the opinion that it would be unusual to reconvert a SVZ to a normal Bertone
The other picture is of Ada Pace with registration number 267091 TO.
I have no info where these pictures are taken.
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01-29-2007, 09:53 AM
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AlfistiSA sent me Adrian Smits’ latest register dated 4/2004, so I can answer many questions, but of course some new ones are left open
Re post #121 by South Africa
Regarding the South African cars, Carlo mixed up SVZ and SV(C), and not SZ. There were several SVs like SVC #06056 and #06193 delivered to South Africa in the late 1950s (and restored in the 1990s to bring them up for sale).
Re post #123 by PeterK
Peter, could you please gave us the exact title/publisher of the book, and the ISBN if possible. I have never heard of it.
Re SVZ #01849
Ada Pace’s SVA was destroyed at the 1958 Rally del Sestrière (19580228), her first race with a SVZ (possibly #01849) was the Bologna-San Luca on 19580504. This meets the timeline. It was also registered with TO 205398. The only question is what happened with the car between 19590920 (last race) and 20060327 (first mention of a SprintNormale which claims this VIN), and not wheter #01849 was rebodied to SVZ or not. To have an original engine in the trunk and old registration plates do not mean much without documented history. However, to call it “absolutely original” with this | |
