The complete SVZ file

[South Africa]

Dear all,

In my opinion, these Alfa Romeo SVZ's are absolutely beautiful pieces of work - art - in the 'same mold' as the SZ, TZ1 and TZ2 and possibly the FERRARI 250 GTO.

While in South Africa I followed the extensive, 'ground up' restoration of TZ1, chassis #017 by BB Car Restorers in Wynberg, Johannesburg between 1980 and 1985. This car was owned by Gary Dunkerley and Mervyn Middlewick at that point in time. This restoration was an absolutely 'gigantic' task as the car had many parts missing, or damaged beyond repair due to modifications or damage during its racing life on the South African circuits. I 'spent a lot of time with this car' but do not have photographs of it or have misplaced any I had. This car was subsequently sold to a person in Germany in about 2000, via 'dealers' in England, and I believe it is still there. It would be 'good' to see photographs of this car if any BB members have any.

On the subject of the SVZ's, Davie de Villiers of Glenwood Motors, Pretoria and Walter Rossi, also in Pretoria South Africa 'scoured', the Southern African countryside, collected, repaired/restored SVZ's and sold many to people in Germany via a Mr Schumacher of Classic-Auto-Tecchnic Gmbh in Bonn, Germany. Again if any BB members have any information/photographs on any of these vehicles it would be a pleasure to see it.

In about 1980 I considerd the purchase of SZ chassis #00108 from David Cohen in Johannesburg, South Africa. At that point in time it did not seem to be a feasable purchase/project as it needed a 'lot' of work and money as it had many non original items on it and was substantially modified. Again it would be 'good' to see photographs of this car if any BB memers have any.

I have posted a photograph of SZ #00108 that I have, on another thread on this site, but cannot find any of TZ1 #017 and would find it interesting to see photographs of these two cars during their lives prior to and after the 1980 era.

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by South Africa On the subject of the SVZ's, Davie de Villiers of Glenwood Motors, Pretoria and Walter Rossi, also in Pretoria South Africa 'scoured', the Southern African countryside, collected, repaired/restored SVZ's and sold many to people in Germany via a Mr Schumacher of Classic-Auto-Tecchnic Gmbh in Bonn, Germany. Again if any BB members have any information/photographs on any of these vehicles it would be a pleasure to see it.

[PeterK]

Dear Martin,

I have recently joined the AlfaBB and I am very interested in this thread about the SVZ.
I am a member of the Dutch Giulietta Register and have met Adrian Smits (author of several articles about the SVZ in the Giuliettaletta and Het Klaverblaadje) several times.
After his last publication, two years ago, a lot of new information is now available and it took some time to study the information from the AlfaBB. Here some remarks from my side.

post#71 #01849 SVZ of Ada Pace
The information about an unrestored Sprint is wrong. In march 2006 this car was for sale at Jan Steutel in Holland.I was interested in buying this car but it went to Italy. It is a Sprint Normale with chassis # 01840 and engine # 1821.

#04069
The production date of this car is 22.3.1956. Egidio Gorza participated in the Giro di Sicilia 14.4.1956. Was Zagato able to build a body in 3 weeks time?
Gino Giugno in his book La Targa Florio della Giulietta suggests that car #01613 (also owned by Gorza) participated.

post#16 #04458
At this moment for sale in Italy and also offered by the company Italparts in Holland. This is not # 1493 04458, it is a recreation. I have received some pictures and one of these pictures shows # 01495 04458. A Spider chassis?

post #29 SVZ Edgar Berney
In Antoine Kohlers book Biographie 50 Ans Giulietta are two pictures of this yellow car with dark stripe across the bonnet. Here we can clearly see the petrol filler cap.
The picture at Spa does not show this stripe. Is the car in the picture of post #29 (Nürburgring 1959) really the Berney car? The colour looks different and it has again a dark stripe across the bonnet.


post#24 unknown SVZ
Also a double bubble car?

A lot of questions are still open. Does anyone know something about the SVZ of Jean Rolland - Gabriel Augias and Gino Munaron?

Peter

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterK Dear Martin, I have recently joined the AlfaBB and I am very interested in this thread about the SVZ. I am a member of the Dutch Giulietta Register and have met Adrian Smits (author of several articles about the SVZ in the Giuliettaletta and Het Klaverblaadje) several times. After his last publication, two years ago, a lot of new information is now available and it took some time to study the information from the AlfaBB. Here some remarks from my side. post#71 #01849 SVZ of Ada Pace The information about an unrestored Sprint is wrong. In march 2006 this car was for sale at Jan Steutel in Holland.I was interested in buying this car but it went to Italy. It is a Sprint Normale with chassis # 01840 and engine # 1821. #04069 The production date of this car is 22.3.1956. Egidio Gorza participated in the Giro di Sicilia 14.4.1956. Was Zagato able to build a body in 3 weeks time? Gino Giugno in his book La Targa Florio della Giulietta suggests that car #01613 (also owned by Gorza) participated. post#16 #04458 At this moment for sale in Italy and also offered by the company Italparts in Holland. This is not # 1493 04458, it is a recreation. I have received some pictures and one of these pictures shows # 01495 04458. A Spider chassis? post #29 SVZ Edgar Berney In Antoine Kohlers book Biographie 50 Ans Giulietta are two pictures of this yellow car with dark stripe across the bonnet. Here we can clearly see the petrol filler cap. The picture at Spa does not show this stripe. Is the car in the picture of post #29 (Nürburgring 1959) really the Berney car? The colour looks different and it has again a dark stripe across the bonnet. post#24 unknown SVZ Also a double bubble car? A lot of questions are still open. Does anyone know something about the SVZ of Jean Rolland - Gabriel Augias and Gino Munaron? Peter

[Joseph]

Peter. First of , Welcome to the AlfaBB forum.
about your observation. Do you have pictures of the car when it was in holland, since I only posted what was reply to me by the owner.
here is his email to me about that car # 01849

"Caro Giuseppe,I just come back from my Christmass holidays.TYo you all my answers.
the car was a sprint veloce the same Ada Pace i ,my car i think was probably in a race, and partialy destroy in the back and much in the front.The doors,the hood and the truck were replaced with normale parts.All the front was again destroied from the rust.In the last pictures i sent to you,you can see now the new front placed with an new old spare buy from Diego Carrara before he died some years ago by a great friend of mine who lives near Vicenza.The correct alluminium doors,truck, hood and bumpers will'be rebuilding from a famous vintage shop in Modena,called il lastraio.

The car is absolutely original,the Vin is AR1493E01849 and the engine block is AR1315*30046,in these days i restored (polished and repainted) also its own original alliminium and iron license plates (front and rear) TO 205398.
Luca




[QUOTE=PeterK;309032]Dear Martin,

I have recently joined the AlfaBB and I am very interested in this thread about the SVZ.
I am a member of the Dutch Giulietta Register and have met Adrian Smits (author of several articles about the SVZ in the Giuliettaletta and Het Klaverblaadje) several times.
After his last publication, two years ago, a lot of new information is now available and it took some time to study the information from the AlfaBB. Here some remarks from my side.

post#71 #01849 SVZ of Ada Pace
The information about an unrestored Sprint is wrong. In march 2006 this car was for sale at Jan Steutel in Holland.I was interested in buying this car but it went to Italy. It is a Sprint Normale with chassis # 01840 and engine # 1821.

[dretceterini]

[QUOTE=Joseph;309158]Peter. First of , Welcome to the AlfaBB forum.
about your observation. Do you have pictures of the car when it was in holland, since I only posted what was reply to me by the owner.
here is his email to me about that car # 01849

"Caro Giuseppe,I just come back from my Christmass holidays.TYo you all my answers.
the car was a sprint veloce the same Ada Pace i ,my car i think was probably in a race, and partialy destroy in the back and much in the front.The doors,the hood and the truck were replaced with normale parts.All the front was again destroied from the rust.In the last pictures i sent to you,you can see now the new front placed with an new old spare buy from Diego Carrara before he died some years ago by a great friend of mine who lives near Vicenza.The correct alluminium doors,truck, hood and bumpers will'be rebuilding from a famous vintage shop in Modena,called il lastraio.

The car is absolutely original,the Vin is AR1493E01849 and the engine block is AR1315*30046,in these days i restored (polished and repainted) also its own original alliminium and iron license plates (front and rear) TO 205398.
Luca

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterK Dear Martin, I have recently joined the AlfaBB and I am very interested in this thread about the SVZ. I am a member of the Dutch Giulietta Register and have met Adrian Smits (author of several articles about the SVZ in the Giuliettaletta and Het Klaverblaadje) several times. After his last publication, two years ago, a lot of new information is now available and it took some time to study the information from the AlfaBB. Here some remarks from my side. post#71 #01849 SVZ of Ada Pace The information about an unrestored Sprint is wrong. In march 2006 this car was for sale at Jan Steutel in Holland.I was interested in buying this car but it went to Italy. It is a Sprint Normale with chassis # 01840 and engine # 1821.

[tubut]

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterK #04069 The production date of this car is 22.3.1956. Egidio Gorza participated in the Giro di Sicilia 14.4.1956. Was Zagato able to build a body in 3 weeks time? Gino Giugno in his book La Targa Florio della Giulietta suggests that car #01613 (also owned by Gorza) participated.

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubut I cannot comment on this car specifically, but I would like to share some insights based on my research on the 105 Alfa 2600 SZ cars produced: It appears the date recorded in Alfa archives as production dates for Zagato cars is NOT the date that cars were produced at Zagato. The unofficial information I have indicates cars were consigned by Zagato to Alfa up to 3 months earlier than the production date recorded by Alfa. I don't want to enter into speculations about the WHY this might be the case, but point out that the 3 weeks mentioned between #04069's production date and being entered into the Giro di Sicilia is plausible to me.

[PeterK]

Joseph,

I don't have pictures of this car.

[PeterK]

I think it is a worthwhile purchase. It starts with 1956 and finishing in1966, it shows photos of every Giulietta variant to have taken part in the Targa Florio. Most of the cars shown are documented by chassis number and registration number.

[Joseph]

Peter .
What do you think about the owner having the "original license plate.
TO 205398". meaning it was register in Torino(Turin)
it is the same as the miniature car 1/43 of Ada Pace.? also the vin number you provide is not the same as the stamping on the car, and the engine which he has, I was told# AR1315*30046.

Also what make you think this is the same car. by the picture I posted you can see that it was red originaly,

[gtv2000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by tubut I cannot comment on this car specifically, but I would like to share some insights based on my research on the 105 Alfa 2600 SZ cars produced: It appears the date recorded in Alfa archives as production dates for Zagato cars is NOT the date that cars were produced at Zagato. The unofficial information I have indicates cars were consigned by Zagato to Alfa up to 3 months earlier than the production date recorded by Alfa. I don't want to enter into speculations about the WHY this might be the case, but point out that the 3 weeks mentioned between #04069's production date and being entered into the Giro di Sicilia is plausible to me.

[2000 touring sp]

Regarding Ada Pace it could be interesting to have the data on the cars that she ran at the Mille Miglia as well other SVZ, does anyone have the book "Giulietta Targa Florio book" and have a possibility to post the info.
In the 1958 Trieste-Opicina Hillclimb Ada Pace had a first place in a Alfa Romeo Giulietta Z, maybe her first race in a SVZ.
Ada Pace raced different cars in 1961 Stallavena-Boscochiesanouva she started under the name "Sayonora" together with Massimo Leto di Priolo and "Kim" Sergio Pedretti all in a GSZ, i supose it was the new official SZ from Alfa Romeo.
She participated in the 47th Targa Florio 1963 Abarth-Simca 1300 Bialbero, Signorina Ada Pace had a DNF


Regarding delivery times
#04069
The production date of this car is 22.3.1956. Egidio Gorza participated in the Giro di Sicilia 14.4.1956. Was Zagato able to build a body in 3 weeks time?
Gino Giugno in his book La Targa Florio della Giulietta suggests that car #01613 (also owned by Gorza) participated.

There is other examples of very fast productions of new bodies in 3 weeks or less. But at this time, it was the custom to have an repair body don by Zagato. And di Priol (chassis 01944) was the first SVZ to have an rebodied car,it was in 1956.
Mr Abate presented his SVZ during MM 1957. The Gorza was first presented in 1957, in the same design as the Abate car, se post 14-55.
So I would expect that Mr Gorza participation in Giro di Sicilia 14.4.1956 must have been in a "normal" Bertone bodied car

George J: has privies pointed out that there is similarity in the Zagato design of the Lancia and the Alfa Romeo. There should have been examples of Mounting SVZ bodies on Lancia chassis, just to make the confusion complete.

Regarding Joseph: I post a picture of Francesco De Leonis SVZ with the registration number 205398 TO, i will be of the opinion that it would be unusual to reconvert a SVZ to a normal Bertone
The other picture is of Ada Pace with registration number 267091 TO.
I have no info where these pictures are taken.

[martinue]

AlfistiSA sent me Adrian Smits’ latest register dated 4/2004, so I can answer many questions, but of course some new ones are left open

Re post #121 by South Africa
Regarding the South African cars, Carlo mixed up SVZ and SV(C), and not SZ. There were several SVs like SVC #06056 and #06193 delivered to South Africa in the late 1950s (and restored in the 1990s to bring them up for sale).

Re post #123 by PeterK
Peter, could you please gave us the exact title/publisher of the book, and the ISBN if possible. I have never heard of it.

Re SVZ #01849
Ada Pace’s SVA was destroyed at the 1958 Rally del Sestrière (19580228), her first race with a SVZ (possibly #01849) was the Bologna-San Luca on 19580504. This meets the timeline. It was also registered with TO 205398. The only question is what happened with the car between 19590920 (last race) and 20060327 (first mention of a SprintNormale which claims this VIN), and not wheter #01849 was rebodied to SVZ or not. To have an original engine in the trunk and old registration plates do not mean much without documented history. However, to call it “absolutely original” with this body (and story) is “absolutely funny”.

Re SVZ #04069
The dates which Peter listed in post #123 clearly refer to 1957 and not 1956 (however Smits had 19570321 for production date). Since the car was rebodied from a new SVA, and shortly after Abate’s #02158, it is of course possible that Zagato had the body panels already produced. When Gorza ordered SVA #04069 he could also have ordered its new body. SVZ #04069 was raced in 1962 at Austria by german driver Herbert Wrobel, who later acquired a TZ. It had already that front section it has now in Japan. Here is the question what happened to the car in the hands of Mario Bongiasca in 1958 to 1960 and how did it come to Germany in 1962. It is only known that Bongiasca had it rebodied to the 1958 style.

Re SVZ ex Berney
At the Monza race 19580907 Berney’s SVZ had its original Alfa heart slightly higher placed than No. 12 in the 1959 Spa race. Its wipers point at the driver’s side, No. 12 one’s are at the passenger’s side. I have two photos of the 1959 Nürburgring 1000 kms five weeks after the Spa event. This time the heart is missing, but in one photo it has only one wiper mounted which points at the driver’s side again (in the other photo it had none).

Re SVZ at Napoli in post #24
Yes, it is had a double bubble roof.

Re SVZ ex Jean Rolland/Gabriel Augias
In J.R. Jaubert’s book “Jean Rolland – L’Amateur Champion” and other sources sometimes a SVZ is listed, but the photos show only SVA #04700 (Tour de Corse 1960) and SZ #00138? (from 1961 onwards). The only other photo I have is from 19610624-28 Critérium International des Alpes, a SZ No. 120 with registration 700 AU 04 (could be AV 04), instead of his later usual 953 AV 04.

Re SVZ ex Gino Munaron
Gino Munaron raced Francesco De Leonibus’ SVZ (#02289). It is mentioned in one of the Alfa Romeo’s own factory magazines (sometimes called “omaggio”) from 1960/1961, a few years before they went on to the “Il Quadrifoglio” in 1966.
19590913 Coppa Inter-Europa – Monza (I), No. 34 SVZ #02289 (TO 267091) Gino Munaron/Francesco De Leonibus-DNS (I), Racing Club 19/Squadra Conrero, 4oa, 1cl (GT2.0, photo)
19590913 Coppa Inter-Europa – Monza (I), No. 32 SS Francesco De Leonibus (I), Racing Club 19
I remember the Mostra Scambio at Padova (I) in the early 1990s, there was Francesco De Leonibus’ SVZ engine for sale, obvious a barn find. Sadly I was in JuniorZs at that time and did not ask for engine number and price (and buy it).

Re post #127 by tubut and post #132 by gtv2000
The SZ/JuniorZ were bodied by Zagato and brought to Alfa Romeo at Portello/Arese to take the mechanicals in (and as far as I am informed also the 2600SZ). So clearly the car was finished by Zagato before it was finished at the Alfa Romeo factory as Patrick mentioned. The SVs brought to Zagato for rebuilding were already produced cars by Alfa Romeo, and to put the mechanicals from the new or damaged cars out, and later to put them in the rebodied cars again, would not need much more than a few days. The time Zagato needed for a new body was of course shorter for the later cars than for the first ones: SVA #01944 was destroyed 19560429 and had its first race 19560902 as SVZ (four months). SVA #01849 was damaged 19580228 and had its first race possibly 19580504 with the new body (two months). SVII #08780 was produced 19590325 and possibly raced first 19590509 with the old body of SVZ #04717 on a new car which could have been #08780 (one month - Hébert/Consten at Rallye du Limousin, but they are sometimes listed with a GiuliettaTI). But what I mentioned with #04069, if Egidio Gorza had ordered the body before, he should have his new car of course rebuilt in a few weeks. Zagato had rebuilt about five cars in the first months of 1958 (#01849, #02289, #02308, #03907, #04717 etc.).

Re post #133 by 2000touingsp
Of course you have mixed something up: Ada Pace raced in 1958 a SVZ, not a SZ. Her first race should be the 19580504 Bologna-San Luca event. The Trieste-Opicina datet 19581005.
The 1961 races should have been done with her SZ #0009, already one year old at the time.
The 1956 Gorza dates rafer to 1957.
The first car of your photo show clearly Ada Pace’s SVZ #01849, but I do not know in which event.
The car in the lower photo is De Leonibus’ SVZ #02289 at the 1959 Stallavena-Boscochiesanuova event.

[South Africa]

Dear Martinue,

Thank you for that.

Your numbers 'tie up' with mine as I remember two vehicles were restored by Mr Rossi for sale to Europe.

I will be in South Africa next month and will see if I can obtain any information on these two vehicles from Mr Rossi.