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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2007, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by gtv2000 View Post
Well, indeed there are other pics of what is believed to be Berney's car without any Alfa heart, and I believe that in such a trim it looks as if it were lower on the nose.
I have two pics of the crashed car at Spa 1959, but they are printed too small to watch them carefully. I must say that from those documents I'm not convinced of the filler cap issue, judging froim the angle the pic is taken and the damage to the rear part of the body.
As dretceterini is credited for having provided to Ad Smits a pic from Christopher Pund, maybe the good Doc could post the pic here at a decent resolution as to watch the car details?
I found that photo in a French magazine (Don't remember which one) circa 2004, and asked Pund if it was OK to use it. I'll have to try and find the magazine, but the picture was very small, and I improved the resolution and clearity as best I could with photoshop.

Of all the SVZs that exist today, IMO only a handfull have the original coachwork. There rest have "restored" or recreated coachwork.
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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2007, 11:57 PM
martinue martinue is offline
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Alleggerita

Seems that I was misunderstood. I never said that any SVA was made of aluminium. According to my sources I have following story:
The Giulietta Sprint Veloce was introduced on April, 20th in 1956. It was a standard Giulietta Sprint steel chassis but it was called ‘Alleggerita’ because of replacing the doors and hoods with aluminium parts and it is said that they were also using thinner steel sheets where possible, not unusual since the Sprint in his early days was more or less handbuilt. It had lighter seats and bumpers, no sound deadening material and perspex side and rear windows. Alfa Romeo saved around 100 kg against the standard Sprint and stated 780 kg dry weight. In Motor Revue 19 from 1956 they weighted the car with 844 kg without fuel (MI 304694, to my records possibly SVA #01536).

This picture is showing one of the first SVAs in a press photograph at Alfa Milano or Bertone Torino:

Name:  19560420 Milano Alfa 101a.JPG
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The lightweight door from inside (MI 304694)

Name:  19561099 Motorrevue19 #01536 MI304694 006a.JPG
Views: 331
Size:  115.3 KB

So the early 1956 SVA #01849 with standard steel doors would never be correct.

In late 1957 Alfa Romeo presented a revised Sprint Veloce: The so called “Confortevole”, a standard Sprint body with all steel parts, but with the door frame of the Alleggerita series, this time with windup glass windows and full interior (article in Auto Italiana 2 from February, 20th 1958). It is said that the Confortevole (or “comfortable”) was built side by side with the Alleggerita for a time, but when the expensive aluminium parts were running out, only the Confortevole survived until April 1958, when the 101 series arrived (“Auto, die Geschichte machten” by Dirk-Michael Conradt). See this pressphoto, used from early 1958 on: same place, same season (trees) but a new building in the background (Hoechst office)

Name:  19570902 Milano Confortevole 001a.JPG
Views: 323
Size:  97.1 KB

Since Alfa Romeo did not use the term “Confortevole” regularly, it seems that as usual there are many intermediate versions. The last SVs had even standard Sprint doors without window frame (see Lionel Velez’ #06611, maybe the last ever built). And of course they must have nearly the same weight as the Sprint Normale.

The Sprint Veloces have the standard Sprint VIN but an “E” (for Elaborata) was stamped between 1493 and the running chassis number. Often the chassis number is not stamped very well, so it would be easy to make a Sprint Veloce out of a Normale by taking a Veloce engine and a rev counter from a rusty Spider, throwing the standard seats away and put racing seats in it. In the early 1960’s you could already buy aluminium and fibreglass doors for your racing Sprint. Some cars had even Alleggerita doors with the 101 grille, so we do not know if it was an original SVA repaired with the later front due of racing damage, or it was a 101 Sprint (SVII) with lighter doors.
But with the additional Bertone number it would be easier to identify a car, since the Alfa chassis number and Bertone’s own number should meet the timeline:

Lession in mathematics
SVA #04347 has the Bertone number 77468. The former owner told me that the number behind 77 (i.e. 468) could probably be the number of the SVAs that were built and that would meet the official estimate of up to 600 cars (SVA #04347 is mid 1957). I know two further Bertone numbers of correct SVAs: 77411 for SVA #04127 and 77025 for SVA #01722, made one year earlier than #04347.

So from chassis #04127 to #04347 they stamped only 57 numbers? And in a full year only 400 numbers?
And, hah, SVA #01722 is the 25th SVA chassis ever built according to Anselmi!
And, surprise, surprise, it has engine #30025.

Next
SV #06230 has Bertone’s 655618, SV #06575 has 655964, both are 1958 without plexi windows, thus SVConfortevoles (SVC). You can see that the Bertone number follows the Alfa number by only one.

So why Bertone gave two different numbers to its 750 Sprints?
I do not know which number a Sprint normale has, but when Bertone had marked 77… for the Sprint Veloce and 65… for the later SVC (and the earlier Sprint normale?) body, you can take 5964 from SVC #06575 and there will be a good 600 left, the same number of produced SVAs as given by Alfa Romeo. This would mean that all the later 750 Normales and Veloces (i.e. SVCs) had the same body. And this could confirm that the original SVA had some special body parts, too, and not only lighter doors.

Engine
But also when you look at the engine numbers from the last SVCs, i.e. #06056 (produced 19580218, without door window frame, too) has engine #30799 and #06575 has engine #31038, and put away the few Spider Veloces made up to April 1958 you will get a number of around 600-800 engines built which will also meet the procuction estimate for SVA+SVC together.

All in all you will come always up to 600 SVAs and 200 SVCs.
And what do the Hull/Slater book state? 252 SV for 1956 and 458 SV for 1957 and only 40 Spider Veloces (SPV) these years, but less than 800 engines produced.
This would come up to Anselmi’s Giulietta book: 98 of the first 100 SVs were built within only three months since presentation in April (#01380 to #02158). All 100 have continuing engine numbers from #30001 to #30100. And of course all were lightweight. And there are many later SVs like #03999, #04127, #04227 and #04229 that are real Alleggeritas with aluminium parts and correct door windows.

Now my question: Joseph and friends, what Chassis and Bertone numbers do your Sprints and Sprint Veloces, Alleggeritas and Confortevoles have? Do they begin with 65… or with 77…?
I would bet Lionel’s SVC #06611 begins with 65 (something like 656000?) and every original SVA up to chassis #04500/#05000 should have aluminium parts and its Bertone number beginning with #77...
To be sure, we will need much more than these few VINs.

Last edited by martinue; 01-08-2007 at 11:00 PM.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 04:06 AM
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Martin.

Martin.
Thank you so much for the info on our little belove Sprint.
Guys like you are what make this board so interesting.
thanks for your contribution.
regards
PS.Will take a look at the Bertone number after this afternoon.
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 10:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinue View Post
SVZ #09403 is based on a 750B Sprint normale, was rebodied by Zagato in 1959 with dubble bubble and is said to be the last SVZ before Zagato went on to the SZ. No information until the late 1990s, when it was for sale with swiss registration. Sold to Joe Senesac (USA), resold (USA)
Attachment 52729
Of the 18 or 20 SVZ prepared in the late fifties only 35 (+/-) remain. Below are a few pics of the above car when I believe it was for sale in Texas. Is there any documentation about this car? Do the bubbles look like any other?
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 10:15 AM
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Some photos from the www of SVZ at event in Japan.

(I had the SZ out this weekend for a nice long drive. Beautiful late afternoon light and great Northern California backroads. Good fun)
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by martinue View Post
Seems that I was misunderstood. I never said that any SVA was made of aluminium. According to my sources I have following story:
The Giulietta Sprint Veloce was introduced on April, 20th in 1956. It was a standard Giulietta Sprint steel chassis but it was called ‘Alleggerita’ because of replacing the doors and hoods with aluminium parts and it is said that they were also using thinner steel sheets where possible, not unusual since the Sprint in his early days was more or less handbuilt. It had lighter seats and bumpers, no sound deadening material and perspex side and rear windows. Alfa Romeo saved around 100 kg against the standard Sprint and stated 780 kg dry weight. In Motor Revue 19 from 1956 they weighted the car with 844 kg without fuel (MI 304694, to my records possibly SVA #01536).

This picture is showing one of the first SVAs in a press photograph at Alfa Milano or Bertone Torino:

Attachment 54318

The lightweight door from inside (MI 304694)

Attachment 54319

So the early 1956 SVA #01849 with standard steel doors would never be correct.

In late 1957 Alfa Romeo presented a revised Sprint Veloce: The so called “Confortevole”, a standard Sprint body with all steel parts, but with the door frame of the Alleggerita series, this time with windup glass windows and full interior (article in Auto Italiana 2 from February, 20th 1958). It is said that the Confortevole (or “comfortable”) was built side by side with the Alleggerita for a time, but when the expensive aluminium parts were running out, only the Confortevole survived until April 1958, when the 101 series arrived (“Auto, die Geschichte machten” by Dirk-Michael Conradt). See this pressphoto, used from early 1958 on: same place, same season (trees) but a new building in the background (Hoechst office)

Attachment 54320

Since Alfa Romeo did not use the term “Confortevole” regularly, it seems that as usual there are many intermediate versions. The last SVs had even standard Sprint doors without window frame (see Lionel Velez’ #06611, maybe the last ever built). And of course they must have nearly the same weight as the Sprint Normale.

The Sprint Veloces have the standard Sprint VIN but an “E” (for Elaborata) was stamped between 1493 and the running chassis number. Often the chassis number is not stamped very well, so it would be easy to make a Sprint Veloce out of a Normale by taking a Veloce engine and a rev counter from a rusty Spider, throwing the standard seats away and put racing seats in it. In the early 1960’s you could already buy aluminium and fibreglass doors for your racing Sprint. Some cars had even Alleggerita doors with the 101 grille, so we do not know if it was an original SVA repaired with the later front due of racing damage, or it was a 101 Sprint (SVII) with lighter doors.
But with the additional Bertone number it would be easier to identify a car, since the Alfa chassis number and Bertone’s own number should meet the timeline:

Lession in mathematics
SVA #04337 has the Bertone number 77468. The former owner told me that the number behind 77 (i.e. 468) could probably be the number of the SVAs that were built and that would meet the official estimate of up to 600 cars (SVA #04337 is mid 1957). I know two further Bertone numbers of correct SVAs: 77411 for SVA #04127 and 77025 for SVA #01722, made one year earlier than #04337.

So from chassis #04127 to #04337 they stamped only 57 numbers? And in a full year only 400 numbers?
And, hah, SVA #01722 is the 25th SVA chassis ever built according to Anselmi!
And, surprise, surprise, it has engine #30025.

Next
SV #06230 has Bertone’s 655618, SV #06575 has 655964, both are 1958 without plexi windows, thus SVConfortevoles (SVC). You can see that the Bertone number follows the Alfa number by only one.

So why Bertone gave two different numbers to its 750 Sprints?
I do not know which number a Sprint normale has, but when Bertone had marked 77… for the Sprint Veloce and 65… for the later SVC (and the earlier Sprint normale?) body, you can take 5964 from SVC #06575 and there will be a good 600 left, the same number of produced SVAs as given by Alfa Romeo. This would mean that all the later 750 Normales and Veloces (i.e. SVCs) had the same body. And this could confirm that the original SVA had some special body parts, too, and not only lighter doors.

Engine
But also when you look at the engine numbers from the last SVCs, i.e. #06056 (produced 19580218, without door window frame, too) has engine #30799 and #06575 has engine #31038, and put away the few Spider Veloces made up to April 1958 you will get a number of around 600-800 engines built which will also meet the procuction estimate for SVA+SVC together.

All in all you will come always up to 600 SVAs and 200 SVCs.
And what do the Hull/Slater book state? 252 SV for 1956 and 458 SV for 1957 and only 40 Spider Veloces (SPV) these years, but less than 800 engines produced.
This would come up to Anselmi’s Giulietta book: 98 of the first 100 SVs were built within only three months since presentation in April (#01380 to #02158). All 100 have continuing engine numbers from #30001 to #30100. And off course all were lightweight. And there are many later SVs like #03999, #04127, #04227 and #04229 that are real Alleggeritas with aluminium parts and correct door windows.

Now my question: Joseph and friends, what Chassis and Bertone numbers do your Sprints and Sprint Veloces, Alleggeritas and Confortevoles have? Do they begin with 65… or with 77…?
I would bet Lionel’s SVC #06611 begins with 65 (something like 656000?) and every original SVA up to chassis #04500/#05000 should have aluminium parts and its Bertone number beginning with #77...
To be sure, we will need much more than these few VINs.
I still disagree. IMO there were no more than 250 SVAs absolute maximum and 100 Confortovoles maximum. I am well aware that the SVAs only had aluminum doors engine hood and trunk lid, and were not all aluminum. Some Confotovoles had aluminum parts and others were all steel. All SVAs had eyebrow grilles. Some SVCs had eyebrow grilles (most) and the others had eggcrate grilles. IMO Confortovole means nothing more than having the full back seat on a veloce.
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 02:37 PM
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Of the 18 or 20 SVZ prepared in the late fifties only 35 (+/-) remain. Below are a few pics of the above car when I believe it was for sale in Texas. Is there any documentation about this car? Do the bubbles look like any other?
IMO, that is not period coachwork, as is the case with most of the cars that exist today.
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Old 01-08-2007, 02:42 PM
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This car was driven by Ross Durant (a BB member in Texas) at Sebring in the early 60's I believe.

(EDIT - Oh, here's a link with more info on it...
http://home.earthlink.net/%7efastcars/race1.html )
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Last edited by Vivace; 01-08-2007 at 02:46 PM.
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 03:15 PM
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This car was driven by Ross Durant (a BB member in Texas) at Sebring in the early 60's I believe.

(EDIT - Oh, here's a link with more info on it...
http://home.earthlink.net/%7efastcars/race1.html )
Beautiful car, but it is one of about 30 long tail SZs built, and not an SVZ. I have seen totals as low as 29 and as high as 45 for the number of longtail SZs built. These are more valuable than the SVZs; an absolute minimum of $175,000 and maybe as much as $250,000. I am somewhat doubting the 149hp figure on the link, as the motor was a 101/1300

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Old 01-08-2007, 04:16 PM
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Beautiful car, but it is one of about 30 long tail SZs built, and not an SVZ. I have seen totals as low as 29 and as high as 45 for the number of longtail SZs built. These are more valuable than the SVZs; an absolute minimum of $175,000 and maybe as much as $250,000. I am somewhat doubting the 149hp figure on the link, as the motor was a 101/1300
I know discusion of SZs is a bit OT, but.... I looked at my list and it looks like 43 SVT were built. Of those at least a couple were destroyed back in the day.

While 149hp is not unheard of in these little motors, they are short lived race motors. Probably not much more than twenty or thirty hours between rebuilds, and figure some special gas in there as well. George
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Old 01-08-2007, 04:18 PM
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IMO, that is not period coachwork, as is the case with most of the cars that exist today.
I've heard the welding on the body looks contemporary.

Last edited by George J; 01-08-2007 at 04:24 PM.
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 04:25 PM
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Martin.
I look at my 57 sprint and the bertone # is 654477 my car is number #05588

[Now my question: Joseph and friends, what Chassis and Bertone numbers do your Sprints and Sprint Veloces, Alleggeritas and Confortevoles have? Do they begin with 65… or with 77…?
I would bet Lionel’s SVC #06611 begins with 65 (something like 656000?) and every original SVA up to chassis #04500/#05000 should have aluminium parts and its Bertone number beginning with #77...
To be sure, we will need much more than these few VINs.]
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 01-08-2007, 10:40 PM
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Thank-you, Martin,

A similar concurrent misunderstanding exists on both the definition of the types of cars of the first Sprint Veloce series, and the number of such cars on the 'Giulietta-Giulia' area of this Alfa BB about Lionel's #1943E-06611 1st series Sprint Veloce.
It seems you and I disagree with 'dretceterini', review that thread. Yes, I get about 500-600 lightweights and 100-200 Confortevoles also. All confortevoles have the 06611 or prior hand-made body, roll-up windows (and eyebrows).
There is no back seat in a confortevloe except as an option, there may be one in ANY Sprint of the period in which they were offered. A back seat has nothing to do with its definition.

Cheers,
Laurence
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