#391 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2008, 04:08 AM
2000 touring sp 2000 touring sp is offline
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Chassis Matinoue Anselmi Giugno engine prod date first owner collar Zagato Scaglietti Michalotti Body Custemor
(nt= no trace
1521 xxxxxxxx 1958 M not GSV
1613 xxxxxx 30011 21-04 1956 Egido Gorza Red 1956 Egido Gorza Claimed to be same body style as 1944 but with double buble same as 2158 Abate
1819 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx 30038 05-05-1956 Domenico Rabino 1957 Rabino
1849 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 30046 03-05-1956 Ada Pace Alfa Red 1958 Pace
1944 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 30059 24-04-1956 Leto di Prioli White 1956/1958 di Prioli Raze by Ubezzi at LeMans after mod
2028 xxxxxxxx 30074 24-04-1956 Giorgio Becucci Red Friedhelm Vogt
2158 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 30100 20-06-1956 Carlo Mario Abate Metallic Gray 1957/1959 Abate Sold to Conrere after mod
2289 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 30126 06-07-1956 Giorgio Suvero 1958 Toselli
2308 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 30108 19-06 1956 1958 Bettoja first Z in 1958
2348 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 06-06-1956 S:C:P:A:R Swiss Gennio Malinverni 1958 nt Berney-Geither ??
2444 xxxxxxxx Fernand Masoero
2488 xxxxxxx 1957
3249 xxxxxx 30231 14-11-1956 Ennio Malinverni 1958 Conrero LeMans 1958 Herbert
3613 xxxxxxxx 1957
3907 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 30383 25-02 1957 Sergio Pedretti 1958 Pedretti
4069 xxxxxxxx Red 1957 Egidio Gorza After Mod. Sold to Bongiasca 1958/59
4249 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 30486 19-03-1957 1959 Dario Sepe
4458 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 20-05-1957 1958 Sergio Cannara
4657 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 19-06 1957 G Auto Koenig Munich Ger 1958 nt after mod ownwd by Schultze-Deneger Deneger Steidle
4717 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 22-06-1957 Generale Automobile Paris 1958 Bernard Consten
4718 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 03-08-1957 Toni Mognaschi 1958 nt Michelotti/Conrero Goccia
6184 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxx 30851 27-03 1958 Pasquale Tacci 1958 Tacci
6936 xxxxxxxx 1958 nt
8780 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx 1959 nt
9403 xxxxxxxx xxxxxxx 1959 nt
xxxxxx xxxxxxx 1958 He´bert ??
xxxxxx xxxxxxx 1959 Mognaschi ??
xxxxxx xxxxxx Jean Pierre Schild Swiss reg GE 18283
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  #392 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2008, 04:18 AM
2000 touring sp 2000 touring sp is offline
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I tried to get some content in this superb tread. maybe the best ever on this forum. Thanks once again martinue
I have trayed to copy a calculation sheet with the info. we have from Anselmi-Matinue and Giugno.It seems to function where all has a reff. Where there is only one or two reff it goes wrong.
But it can be stated that they all have some or et least one chassis that is not covered by the other two.
I will work at little more to see haw I transfer a calc. sheet into the Webb. Anyone has experience please PM me
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Old 02-16-2008, 06:56 AM
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Discrepancies

Chassis

1521 Matinue SVZ #01521 was for sale on auction in 1998 (GB) and 2000 (D). According to auction papers it is based on a 1956 Sprint Normale and was rebodied by Zagato in 1958, UK registered. No other information since

1613 Giugno Build for Egido Gorza, not to be mixed with 4069 also build for Gorza, in the shape of 1944, but with double bubble, in post 55 they are together with numbers 41.35-55. It was rebuild in 1958/59 with a diff. body shape covered head lamps for Mario Bongiasca. If this statement is correkt, tha car participated in Giro di Sicilla under the number 157. The same car as pictured by Martinue in post 14

1819 Matinue Anselmi SVS #01819 is based on a 1956 SVA (Alleggerita type) and was re bodied in 1957 by Scaglietti for its owner Domenico Rabino. this one is not covered by Giugno
2028 Matinue SVA #02028 was originally owned by Giorgio Becucci, Bologna (I) and raced at the 1956 Mille Miglia. According to Auto Motor Klassiek magazine 1/1994 it was rebuilt to SVZ and came to Germany to be raced by Friedhelm Vogt. There are no German race results confirming that but one Ron J. Vogt raced possibly a SVZ in 1959 at the Nürburgring and in a few races more. In 1994 owner was Rinus Belt (NL)

2444 Matinue SVZ #02444 was for sale in the 1997 Paris auction from the Fernand Masoero collection. No information before and since then. It had a later SZ front.
2488 Anselmi: Anselmi don't give any trace of this chassis

3249 Giugno Brought by Ennio Malinverni on the 19/2 1957 licence 220931. Sold to Racing Sport same year. Brought by Conrero in 1958, and re bodied by Zagato
to latest design with covered head lamps. Participated in LeMans 1958 Marcel Lauga and Jean Herbert, and destroyed during the race

3613 Matinue SVZ #03613: It was sold in 1997 at the Mike Hailwood Auction/London. Said to be one of three double bubble cars made in 1957 by Zagato and should be fully documented. Modified front, was sold to the United States. Its the same design as 1613 Gorza and 2158 Abate.

4069 Matinue Anselmi #04069 was the third SVA re bodied by Zagato in early 1957. Egidio Gorza raced it in 1957. 1958/1959 it was sold to Mario Bongiasca, Milano (I), who had the front modified. Bongiasca entered some events in 1959/1960 but there is no photograph for confirmation. In 1962 Herbert Wrobel from Munich (D) raced and tried to sell it. Said to be raced in Germany the following years, there was no information up to 1991, when it came to Auction at Genève (CH) and 1992 at Tokyo (J); was sold to Japan The car number 157 Martinue uses in post as reff. is the same as Giugno uses as reef to chassis 1613. And Giugno also uses the same new owner.

6936 Matinue #06936 is said to be re bodied in 1958 to SVZ, no information since

8780 Matinue Anselmi SVZ #08780 came from a SVII (second series Sprint Veloce, no lightweight) and was rebodied in 1959. It raced the 1983 or 1984 Tour de France Automobile and was for sale by Bonhams in 2002. Modified rear, sold to Richard Ballantine (USA) Anselmi don't give any trace

9403 Matinue Anselmi SVZ #09403 is based on a 750B Sprint normale, was rebodied by Zagato in 1959 with dubble bubble and is said to be the last SVZ before Zagato went on to the SZ. No information until the late 1990s, when it was for sale with swiss registration. Sold to Joe Senesac (USA), resold (USA)
Anselmi gives no trace
xxxx Anselmi reff Driver Herberth This could be the Conrero LeMans car from 1958

xxxx Anselmi reff Mognaschi


xxxx Giugno Jean Pierre Schild Swiss reg GE 18283 Martinue post 23. Its interesthing as the picture in Martinue post could indicate a forth in line with 1613-2158-3613

I have omitted those chassis numbers where there is 3 references, also I have omitted the pictures from the Giugno book without any chassis reff , also those from Matinue with out chassis reff has been omitted

2348 Sold to S:C:P:A:R in Swiss 06-06-1956 it ca be the car can be the car used by Edgar Berney and Theo Geither Martinue Post 29

4657 Sold 19-06 1957 Auto Koenig Munich Ger re bodied by Zagato in 1958 after modification owned by Schultze-Bernd Deneger- Ernst Gertch and Wolfgang Steidle Martinue post 30-38-
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  #394 (permalink)  
Old 02-16-2008, 12:22 PM
Monoposto Monoposto is offline
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Unfortunately I don't speak or understand Italian, but is it possible to obtain the numberplate information from the Pubblico Registro Automobilistico (PRA) online through this link : ACI - Ufficio Provinciale ACI di Latina
?

I've been browsing this website and there's a module to pay fees with your creditcard, but is that for the information?

If true, this could save a trip to Rome...
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  #395 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2008, 05:55 AM
martinue martinue is offline
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Thank you, 2000TouringSp, but sorry, your list is not up to date: 2444 was a simple typing error, Vogt never sat in 2028, 2348 has nothing to do with Malinverni, etc. All this (and more) had been clarified in earlier posts.

Two new ones: Alfaronny sent me some links about old racing photos, there I found another two cars: The 1959 Rallye du Roussillon saw one SVZ with No. 68 with Jean Valette/René Lepy.
Valette had some more Giulietta entries in 1958, not sure with which type.

Name:  19590719 Roussillon No68 Valette-Lepy 001.jpg
Views: 457
Size:  57.6 KB

A second SVZ in the 1959 Roussillon rally was entered with No. 69 for Pierre Roueylou/Cauvet. Roueylou had Giulietta entries from 1959 until 1961, but also here, not sure about the type.

Name:  19590719 Roussillon No69 Roueylou-Cauvet 001.jpg
Views: 473
Size:  79.5 KB

SVZ *09403*: #9403 is the last SVZ built in 1959 and mentioned in Anselmi's Giulietta book. As stated earlier, the known car now in the US lacks any period body line.
Now Jaycee sent me a small copy of an advert from 1984. The well known french racer and collector Jean-Louis Solignac had SVZ *09403* for sale, but when John arrived, the car was already sold (to Germany?). The pic is very small, but you can clearly see: it has the common 1958/1959 body style, but the front is modified, and ... it has a flat roof!

Name:  19830000 LaVieDeLAuto #09403 Solignac 001.jpg
Views: 445
Size:  131.2 KB

Sergio "Pegaso" Bettoja:
Bettoja purchased SVA *01461* just before the 1956 Mille Miglia.
SVA *02308* was purchased in mid 1956 by Candida Tupini Srl.
Then Pegaso had some entries in September/October the same year.
He raced a SVA in early 1957, according to its reg plate from the Giro di Sicilia dated 19570414 it already was *02308*.
In mid 1957 SVA *02208* came to Roma and was reregistered.
In late 1957 Bettoja then had some more entries, the 19571124 Targa Florio saw him again with *02308* according to Giugno's Giulietta-Targa book, but not pictured.
In early 1958 SVA *02308* was rebodied to SVZ, and it was still owned by Tupini (and never by Bettoja according to the ACI papers). Bettoja crashed it in the 1958 Targa Florio, and Tupini sold it 19580830 to Giuseppino Giordanello from Ancona, who resold it again in early 1959 to Napoli.
In early 1959 Pegaso had two SVA entries more, the Esso 6h at Vallelunga and the Targa Florio one week later, both with the car now registered in Roma (should be *02028*).
In 1960 he raced GiuliettaSS *00029*, and only once, in the Targa Florio, SZ *00002*.
In 1961 he purchased SZ *00094*, but I found only one entry for him, the Frascati-Tuscolo Trofeo Franco Venturi.
Conclusion: Bettoja sold *01461* in mid to late 1956. He raced *02308* when it was owned by Candida Tupini from late 1956/early 1957 to mid 1958. and he raced *02028* in early 1959 for a very short time. All this would need confirmation.
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  #396 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2008, 07:35 AM
Monoposto Monoposto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinue View Post
In early 1959 Pegaso had two SVA entries more, the Esso 6h at Vallelunga and the Targa Florio one week later, both with the car now registered in Roma (should be *02028*).

Conclusion: Bettoja ... raced *02028* in early 1959 for a very short time. All this would need confirmation.
If true, this would mean *02028 wears a period Zagato body.

Targa Florio results of 1959 say:

#36 Sergio Bettoja (I) & P. Feroldi (I)
Alfa Romeo Giulietta SV Zagato
team Camidoglio
DNF GT1.3

Only remark I would have is: WHY have an expensive conversion carried out for only 2 races... Beccuci didn't have this car converted (not sure, but wouldn't make sense).
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  #397 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2008, 07:59 AM
martinue martinue is offline
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The results of the 1959 Targa are wrong, Bettoja raced a SVA just like a week before at Vallelunga. So if it was *02028* (and the reg plates were not transferred to another car), the rebodying by Zagato was done later than the Targa Florio race.
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  #398 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2008, 10:34 AM
Monoposto Monoposto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by martinue View Post
The results of the 1959 Targa are wrong, Bettoja raced a SVA just like a week before at Vallelunga. So if it was *02028* (and the reg plates were not transferred to another car), the rebodying by Zagato was done later than the Targa Florio race.

Okay. Then this picture (like in reply #300) is most likely *02028.

The Targa Florio was in may 1959 and *02028 still wasn't converted by Zagato; so what John was thinking (*02028 not being converted in period) still holds up.

That must have been some 'restoration' this car got in the 80's...

What was the name of this infamous Italian that 'restored' all kinds of important cars... Signore G.....

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  #399 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2008, 11:13 AM
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Il Vecchio Il Vecchio is offline
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[quote=Monoposto;490731]

What was the name of this infamous Italian that 'restored' all kinds of important cars... Signore G.....

QUOTE]

Galbati? They were remanufacturing SZ's, as I recall.
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Last edited by Il Vecchio; 02-19-2008 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 02-19-2008, 01:55 PM
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  #401 (permalink)  
Old 02-19-2008, 03:45 PM
richardowen richardowen is offline
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Do these cars never leave Italy or what? In all the event photographs I've trolled through and personally taken, I've never seen one of these beauties.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:42 PM
Monoposto Monoposto is offline
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Do these cars never leave Italy or what? In all the event photographs I've trolled through and personally taken, I've never seen one of these beauties.
They do, but.. they're not supercars.. 'just' postwar, tiny Alfa's... you see them often in the smaller events and still being driven in anger!

I must admit that I always kind of 'ignored' these cars (standard SV, SVZ & SZ) when visiting events or historic races and only for the last year and a half or so start thinking differently about em.

I wouldn't know what kind of money these cars go for when in an auction. Most of them are sold privately, I guess. Some of them have an interesting history.

Weird thought that like in 1956 people could actually buy a stock Alfa Romeo with a tiny 1300 engine and finish the Mille Miglia second in class and 12th overall... (like *02028 did)!
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  #403 (permalink)  
Old 02-20-2008, 10:37 AM
Skinthin Skinthin is offline
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dark-striped definitive SVZ with successive owners?

In post #395 Martinue provides a photo of a light colored definitive body style SVZ in the '59 Rousillion rally entered by Roueylou/Cauvet (plate 573 GH11 - or BH11 or OH11). It is decorated with a dark stripe the width of the Alfa grill that extends onto the top.
That same dimensioned dark stripe is on the "Carriere" SVZ entry in the June 24, 1961 Mont Ventoux event (plate 169 EY3D), and on the "Gayte/Gayte" entry in the Nov 9-10, 1963 Tour de Corse (plate 829 GX84).
(Carriere photo in Maurice Louche's "Ventoux" pg. 236 and Gayte photo in Louche's "Tour de Corse" pg. 80.)
Gayte's car shows signs of use, with the nose covered in bondo perhaps and slight side damage. November 1963 was a late date for an SVZ!
Carriere finished 8th in the 1001 - 1600cc class at Mont Ventoux. The results identify him in an "Alfa Romeo."
Roueylou was at Mont Ventoux in June 1961, too, listed in an "Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Zagato" and besting Carriere by two places finishing 6th in class. Louche has no photo of the Roueylou car.
Could Roueylou, Carriere and Gayte have owned the same dark-striped SVZ at successive times?
It might help to see what Roueylou was driving at Mont Ventoux in 1961. Anyone have more photos?
And then there is in Martinue's post #395 the definitive style light colored no-stripe Valette/Lepy SVZ at Rousillon. The Pasquier/Steinbach entry in the Sept. 15-23, 1960 Tour de France is a light colored no-stripe car. The same? The SVZ's competitive time is winding down, fast, and only a few gaps in their period histories remain.
Many thanks to Martinue and John de B and all for uncovering so much SVZ history.
Richard G. Ballantine
E8780
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Old 02-25-2008, 05:41 PM
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Year-1957, Model-SVZ, Chassis S#- 04249

Would anyone know anything about this car? This was just posted on the 750-101 discussion group. The car is in India of all places. I can ask for more information and pictures if anyone is interested.
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Old 02-26-2008, 10:04 AM
Monoposto Monoposto is offline
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Yes please!


Quote:
Originally Posted by velocedoc View Post
Year-1957, Model-SVZ, Chassis S#- 04249

Would anyone know anything about this car? This was just posted on the 750-101 discussion group. The car is in India of all places. I can ask for more information and pictures if anyone is interested.
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