The complete SVZ file

[jaycee]

Hi, Just a quick thank you to Curami, Martinue and John for yet more info.and photos.
I was afraid I was diverting the site with requests re Ada Pace, but the drivers are interesting, and the cars don't work too well without them!
I wonder how many of these people who competed in SV, SVZ, SZ etc are still
around, I know some have passed on.
It would be interesting to hear from one of them.
Looking at the results for Ada, I wonder if she could have been out right Champion some years or was the Women's class champion saving face for the men? She certainly seemed able to equal some top drivers of the day.
Anyone able to check all results to work it out!
That posting 297 re the SV with streamline nose does show a QD nose, easily overlooked on first viewing. I wonder who thought of and made that.
I suppose it may have helped on the flat out bits of the MM.
Give me more info! More Photos! I am now an addict! J.C.

[iicarJohn]

I've been considering the possibility that the extended nose, presumably on 01849's Bertone body, may not have had much to do with any perceived aerodynamic improvement but may have been hiding something(?) ... or was perhaps simply an elegant "bumper" that could be used by an aggressive driver who was trying not to damage the original nose metal too much? Whatever the intent, it is an interesting detail. If it was aerodynamic, one would presume that they did some testing.

I presume that "martinue" meant "1958" rather than "1957" in his latest synopsis of this car and the Targa Florio/Coppa Inter-Europa/etc. details? From the brief overview, it would seem that the new SVZ book may be disappointingly incomplete?

[martinue]

re SVA: To Anselmi's 100 cars I have only about 40 cars recorded, with a few Bertone# or engine#.

According to the Hull/Slater/Schrader book and the Fusi numbers there were built:

1956 252x SV(A, my notes run from 77001 to 77184)/18x SPV/266 engines (my notes run from 30001 to 30231)
1957 458x SV(A+SVC, my notes run from 77313 to 77500, all of them were produced in the first 6 months, no SVC recorded)/32x SPV/495 engines (my notes run from 30383 to 30717)
1958 401x SVC+SVII/853x SPV/1245 engines (my numbers begin with 30799)
all together 2014 cars/2006 engines

re 1957 Coppa Intereuropa: #43 is Molteni, #42 is Pace

19570908 Monza No41 No35 No55 No43 No53 No37 NoX No30 No44 NoX No31 No56 No57 No40 No24 No42 No49 No

re Pace overall:
1958 Campionato Conduttori Velocità GT1.3 (I): 1. Miro Toselli, SVZ #02289; 2. Ada Pace, SVZ *01849*; 3. Carlo Maria Abate, SVZ #02158
1959 Campionato Conduttori di Velocità (I): Sergio “Kim” Pedretti, SVZ *03907*, 34, 1cl (GT1.3); Ada Pace, SVZ *01849*, 2cl (GT1.3)
1960 Campionato di Velocità (I), Ada Pace, SZ *00009*, 7cl (GT)

[iicarJohn]

I think I shared a Bertone body number listing on another Giulietta-related thread already, but even though this is a Zagato SV thread, I state again that I would like to learn the Bertone body number of any car, regardless of its chassis origins, Alfa Romeo or not.

I have collected Bertone numbers for lots of cars and will not show them all here as many are not specifically apropos to the study of Alfa Romeo production and history. But it is important to acknowledge how Bertone used their numbering system. It appears to be a bit different than the numbering systems used by many other coachbuilders.

Each design that was built (after a certain point in any case) was assigned a design number and that design number was incorporated into the first digits of the body number. For the production Giulietta body, the design number was "65". There are lots of holes to fill yet, but based on numbers collected thus far, a brief overview of how the "65xxxx" or "65xxxxx" number fits into Bertone design:

30xx = Siata Amica cabriolet
40xx = Siata 300BC spider
41xx = Lancia B52 berlina 5/6 posti
43xx = Arnolt MG coupe
44xx = Arnolt MG convertible
50xx = Siata 208S berlina
51xx = Siata Daina Sport coupe
57xx = Fiat 1100/103TV berlinetta, some of which are called "Stanguellini"
58xx & 58xxx = Arnolt Bristol Bolide and Deluxe
59xx = Aston Martin (also for Arnolt)
61xx = Aston Martin (also for Arnolt?)

65xxxx & 65xxxxx = Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint, the definitive production version, even through various evolutions into the Giulia range that carried similar bodies into 1963 at least. We might expect the earlier Giulietta prototype(s) to carry earlier design number(s) and we might expect a few show specials to carry later numbers. Probably the convertible as well, if it was produced for more than show. It is always possible that a special here or there did not carry a "series" Bertone number at some point. No Bertone number has yet been reported for any of the three 1900 B.A.T. cars but that does not mean that they don't have them. For a short time in the 655xxx range, some cars (perhaps "confortevole"?) carried the suffix "A" to the Bertone body number as well. It is clear that Bertone kept track of their build design in a clear fashion and it is also clear that they used their own numbering system as a build sequence indicator as well as probably a billing number. Aside from one number that was probably misreported, the range of numbers collected by myself thus far are *651389* to *6531134* and the "A" suffix cars range from *655884*A to *655964*A plus two numbers reported incompletely that are "___515*A" and "___583*A".
I would think there is a possibility that the "A" suffix cars were made in a batch or two batches or perhaps a few batches, so number ranges need not encompass all "A" or all non-"A" suffix cars throughout any range seen. When more numbers are collected, we might begin to have an idea of how things were done. Somehow, it is generally more difficult to inspire people who own "normal" cars to share information about their cars. Because these cars can seem a bit "normal", I think that owners of these cars often don't understand that their "normal" car is also "special" as well as important to the overall historical study.

Continuing:

70xx = Arnolt Bristol coupe

77xxx = Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Alleggerita ("lightweight"), different enough from the "65" series to be considered a new design for Bertone's purposes. Although there was some variation as well throughout the production, the basic build was fairly consistent throughout the run of perhaps 500 to 600 cars. Consistent enough to not require a new design number. It was in the 1980's, after I'd collected a number of Siata Bertone body numbers as well as Giulietta "65xxxxx" numbers, that I did some work for Martin Swig on his lightweight "77498" that was sold some time later. Because of the high Bertone number, it was then that I realized that there were a lot more lightweights made than I would have supposed. But, thinking about it again, it made sense when I studied the homologation rules of the time and what it took to get a car accepted as "production". And, when you think about it, it was probably an easy car to build alongside the other Giulietta production. When "Jaycee" shared a number of UK-based numbers a few years later, it served to reinforce what I'd already learned. Numbers collected to date range from *77018* to *77498* but I am quite sure that higher numbers are out there. If martinue has seen or collected *77500" from a car, I would love to know chassis number and engine details of that car.

Continuing:

87xxx & 87xxxx = Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Speciale & Giulia Sprint Speciale

140xxx & 140xxxx = Alfa Romeo 2000 Sprint and 2600 Sprint

260xxx = Iso Rivolta

I suppose I really should look carefully at an early Fiat 850 spider, but "production" was quite different by this time. No more hand-formed or hand-finished panels welded together ... by hand.

Anyone have any Bertone body numbers to add?

[dretceterini]

As a side note, I use the name dretceterini as much due to the fact there is something about these small displacement, almost home-built small displacement Italian sports-racers that fascinates me, as due to the fact I know something about them.

(Andrea) Curami and John DeBoer are almost certainbly the 2 world's foremost experts on the subject. For those who are not aware, Curami is the author of the fantastic book on etceterinis; "La Sport E I Suoi Artigiani".

It's wonderful for two fanatics like them to share their knowledge.

[AR58SprintV]

Dear iicarJohn,
Stuart Alfazagato, of this board owns 77500, chassis 1493E*04700, photos of the firewall etc are in the abb "Sprinting About" thread in the Giulietta section. It may be a Conreroprepared car. Also 77518 has been rumored, I'll let you know. Lightweights!
GregSA has TWO confortovoles on that thread, one early style(1957) and one a bit later.
Alfazagato has also asked for underhood photos of a SVZ and as a reply was shown on the abb photos perported to be from SVZ 02028. The SVZ in the photo has a firewall converted from a pressed steel Sprint body post the chassis # 06611 redesign, note the gutter, indicating conversion from a later car.

Thanks again,
Laurence

[curami]

The Facetti tuned SVZ of Ada Pace at the start of 1959 Coppa Intereuropa.
During August she definitely left the Conrero Firm in favour of Piero Facetti.
From l to r: Carlo Facetti (later well known Alfa racing driver), Piero Facetti (who begun to tune cars in the Thirties for Count Giovannino "Johnny" Lurani and the Scuderia Ambrosiana members) Ada Pace and Claudio Marzani, later clerk of the course at Monza.
The "Squadra Conrero" logo, at the bottom of the windscreen, has been hastily covered with tape

[richards]

Hi

Trust this is not OT but does anyone have knowledge of Fausto Verginelli, born in Rome in 1933 and lived there. Raced an SVZ and from early 1962 his own SZ round tail. I have no other information other than I believe he was a 'semi- professional', not a 'Gentleman Driver' nor fully professional.

Thanks Richard

[curami]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iicarJohn Just had a look in Pino Fondi's nice book on the Targa Florio and in the quite thorough appendix of results compiled by Gianni Cancellieri and Giorgio Spallarosa (with input from others including Curami) there is a note that, in 1959, there is the additional confusion of a listing for "Ivanohe" = Pietro Laureati who shared a Giulietta SV with Ivo Pompei and finished 16th o/a. I also had a look in Janos L. Wimpffen's amazingly excellent (although not perfect) "Time and Two Seats" and he lists "Ivanhoe" as being a racing pseudonym for Pietro Laureati. So, now I think we have to keep track of "Ivanhoe Avorio" and simply "Ivanhoe" with the possibility of "Ivanoe" or "Ivanohe" being used on occasion in error because maybe I am not the only one who gets confused or simply mis-types on occasion? Anyone else have any thoughts on "Ivanho"?

[iicarJohn]

Although nothing concrete came to mind upon seeing the name, I find that I have one entry in my computerized files for Fausto Verginelli. He ran a Fiat 1100 to 108th overall in the 1963 Coppa della Consuma and was 4th in class. Although my 1960's knowledge is not as comprehensive as that of the 1950's and 1940's, I have to say that if he'd been anything major on the racing scene during the heyday of the SVZ and SZ, I'd probably have something more already on file or more of an "Ahah!" in my head. I can do some checking but it may take some time and there is a lot to do that is ahead of it in line.

Best of luck learning more, and if you do, please share it!

[curami]

A reason for the first grade international license issued to "Ivanhoe" (Avorio) may be his victory in the 1953 Italian Championship up to 2 litres GT class.

[iicarJohn]

Thanks to Curami for looking up the license information relating to the various "Ivanhoe" possibilities. I should have done that myself, I suppose. Unfortunately, my 1958 files also seem to be missing the pertinent licensing information. But, I have taken a cue from you and have added some of that sort of information to the Ada Pace compilation. Any other news from anyone before I replace the last iteration with a new one? Thanks to "martinue", I now have a bit more information that comes from a few photos published "in period". And I've generated some more detail and a couple of corrections.

And for Richard S. I have a pretty good start on a similar listing for Sergio Pedretti, a.k.a. "Kim", done while wading through the files looking for additional Ada Pace info. All told, it's only been about thirty hours (or so) of work over the last four days!

A presto!

[iicarJohn]

And to Laurence a thank-you for the heads-up to the other Giulietta thread. I hadn't looked at it in quite some time. It has grown! I had the chassis number for Bertone 77500 already but had not gotten the Bertone number, so thanks. There were a few other bits of "news" as well. But, also a lot left to be done! This could become more than a full time job! (It already was ...)

I will probably share a Bertone listing on that thread in the next few days. Along with some other notes of general interest to the topics.

[martinue]

For Verginelli I found following entries (from Auto Italiana, Alfas only):

19620325 Trofeo Franco Venturi - Frascati-Tuscolo (I), SZ Fausto Verginelli (I), 10cl (GT1.3)
19620415 Trofeo Lazzaroni - Roma (I), SZ Fausto Verginelli (I), 16cl (GT1.6)
19620527 Coppa Azienda di Soggiorno – San Benedetto del Tronto-Acquaviva (I), SZ Fausto Verginelli (I), 6cl (GT1.3)
19620902 Coppa Gallenga - Squarciarelli-Rocca di Papa (I), SZ? Fausto Verginelli (I), 12cl (GT1.3)
19630331 Trofeo Franco Venturi - Frascati-Tuscolo (I), SZ Fausto Verginelli (I), 12cl (GT1.3)

Do you know a VIN?

[richards]

Hi Martin, others

Thanks for your helpful post on Fausto Verginelli most interesting - will pm you.

There are 3 further Rome based drivers of SVZ/SZs I'm interested in and should have mentioned before you searched the archives!

Paolo Datti was a most useful driver racing an SZ on the Targa Florio in '63 with no less a co-driver of Ignazio Giunti chassis 10 number Cs 27159 - this SZ according to Hughes/Prato originally sold to Giuseppe Della Torre?
Paolo also raced some Ferraris etc but did he appear again with an SZ after '63 or was it a one off?

Rinaldo Andreini, another Roman driver seems to have raced SZ's in a minor way - any news?

Finally Piero Conti often confused with Luciano Conti who raced SZs and I think SVZs extensively before going on to found AutoSprint? in Bologna. He died in the early '90s and the magazine carried a fairly extensive review of his exploits then. But what of Piero Conti?

Thanks again Richard