Quattroruote Zagato

[twoliterlover]

Yes, I suspect about $50,000 reserve, but I did open the bidding. I think I know this car from Lake Oswego, Oregon. Maybe, not, but nice to see someone willing to sell.

[Belfast Child]

Here's a link to a Pettenella that sold last year for 28,000 Euro.

http://www.motorbase.com/auctionlot/by-id/1192224437/

[dretceterini]

I don't see why people knock the Pettenella. It is as much an Alfa as any one of the hundreds of Alfa specials, such as the Nardi 6c2500 based cars.

[iicarJohn]

This thread is an excellent example of why these non-descriptive words should not be used for any car. There is no agreement as to what the words mean. If your desire is to communicate rather than inflame, stop using these words!

Zagato is a coachbuilder with a long and glorious tradition of building bodies for Alfa Romeo. There was marketing cachet in Quattroruote's selection of them for building the 4R. Zagato was probably happy to have the work. Alfa Romeo was happy to go along. The Italian market at the time was populated with various neo-classic attempts to capitalize on a perceived market for these kinds of "toys". It was intended to be evocative and there was no intent to build a true "replica", whatever your own definition of that word may be. No part of a 4R is designed to deceive the educated viewer into thinking they are looking at a car that was built in 1930.

Pettenella got their start in this sector by doing restorations on some Alfa Romeo 6C spider Zagato cars and they also converted/rebodied a few non-Zagato bodied cars to "Zagato" configuration. Using those lessons and patterns, they also built a series, small and not yet well-described, of "Pettenella" and/or "Leontina" cars using then-modern Alfa Romeo mechanicals. Unlike the 4RZ, these cars made a more serious attempt to resemble the 6C1750 of the 1930's. Was this wrong? I don't think so. Does it matter what I think? Probably not. Are they "Alfa Romeo"? Not really. Did they have real permission from Alfa Romeo? I don't know. Was there a quiet threat of a law suit to halt production? Perhaps. Are they "replica"? Perhaps some of them, at least in some people's eyes. Again, we do not agree on the meaning of the term, so what can we do? Describe the car for what it is ... and what "history" was made ... in as much detail as possible.

Stu, I don't care if you like the Pettenella more than the 4RZ. You are comparing apples and oranges that happen to have Alfa Romeo parts as the only real common elements. I don't care to read any more about why you have your opinion. It is of no interest to me. Enough already!

Now, does anybody want to see a list of 4R production?

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
iicar@earthlink

[iicarJohn]

By the way, to Joe in So. Fla.

I saw the humor in your postings straight away. Too bad others did not.

All the best.

John

[Jr. Z]

I've seen this car quite a few times @ AROO meetings and drives/tours, it's really a super nice car that would not need very much at all to make it into a concours car. A "Club Concours" car "as is". Keith, who has owned it for years, hardly ever drives it and has been talking about selling it for some time. It's always been garaged and Keith has always taken good care of it. I would think that it would need some new rubber parts, tires, and fluid changes, but that should be about all to make a good driver. Body is really excellent, with good shut lines, straight panels, and very nice paint. I drove directly behind it for miles on an evening tour a few years back and can tell you it handles very nicely, corners flat and quickly, and is pretty quick in a straight line as well, even with the correct "Normale" type engine spec..

Lots of very nice details that Zagato did on these cars that have to be appreciated in person. I have to admit to liking Zagato stuff (Duh!!), but bias aside, as much as possible, I really like the way these cars look in person. Photos don't do them justice, I never thought they looked very good until I saw them in person.

No financial interest, etc., I know Keith as a club member, he's a real gentleman and very honest, any dealings you have with him will I'm sure be fair and above board.

I don't really know what his reserve is, he's talked with a few of us about selling but I don't really remember him settling on a "number" that he would be willing to take for the car. So few of these things sell that it's pretty hard to set a value.

I live somewhat close, so if anybody wants me to refresh my memory of the car (he only takes it out every couple of years, it's been a while since I've seen it) I'll be happy to see Keith and look at a detail that you want clarified.

It's not my business what you want to pay/bid and what Keith wants to sell it for, but I don't think there would be any disapointments in the transaction.

Bruce

[iicarJohn]

Here is a basic listing, largely derived from Zagato records, heavily edited as noted in the file. To anyone who shares information that is more specific than "a red car was in Sarasota, Florida in the 1970's", I will share a more detailed listing. Although directed primarily at actual owners, I will also share with those who are true "fans" and who have been paying attention and who would like to learn more, as would I.

This means that, at a minimum, I would need to have a serial number (chassis preferred, engine acceptable, Zagato number also welcome) and/or name & location (and means of contacting) the owner or former owner. Of course, more general information can also be useful, but it takes far too much time trying to correlate information without any means of confiming it.

This kind of information is also sought for Pettenella. Only two "Leontina" cars are currently identified by chassis number (A.P. 1034 and A.P. 1042 ) at this point but I have leads to a half-dozen more. It is often repeated that twenty were made but I have seen no real documentation to that effect.

I also note that one of the Pettenella "Zagato-style" rebodies (on the Alfa Romeo 6C1750 N. AR6C10814310) was largely destroyed in a fire on a Mille Miglia retro event many years ago. Fortunately, the car survived. It was restored once again with a Zagato-style body, no longer by Pettenella.

Best regards and once again, Thanks in advance.

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
iicar@earthlinkNET

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iicarJohn Stu, I don't care if you like the Pettenella more than the 4RZ. You are comparing apples and oranges that happen to have Alfa Romeo parts as the only real common elements. I don't care to read any more about why you have your opinion. It is of no interest to me. Enough already! Now, does anybody want to see a list of 4R production? John de Boer The Italian Car Registry iicar@earthlink

[iicarJohn]

Stu,

If you state an opinion once, it may be just that, and you are certainly free to do so... just in case someone cares. But to keep returning to your "opinions" and trying to promote them as something that warrants discussion is a waste of time. You begin to make me think that you are "speaking" just to "hear" your own voice.

John

[iicarJohn]

Just for information's sake, because I certainly have no financial interest in the car or any other car similar to it, I can say that the Zagato records indicate that this car (AR*393059) was indeed "rosso Palermo" in color and it was produced 4 August 1967. It was sold that year to a private customer (rather than a dealer) in Parma, as stated in the Ebay listing.

Best regards,

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

[twoliterlover]

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE CAR, THEN QUIT BAD MOUTHING IT. And a joke is not funny to everybody. and too blasted many pokes in the eye get to be too much. These rare cars (hey, I like the other ones too, but have bever seeb one) are COSTA PLENTY. At least it is not in euros at 1.36 dolllars each or English pounds which now are over $2.00. They few were made as a favor by Zagato before they went out of business to try to show respect (and perhaps curry business) to what Alfa once was, and they used what were then modern Alfa components so devotees could work on them in the simple manner one always used to be able to work on Alfa cars. These cars are totally impractical. I recall that when the side curtain are up one can't use the doors, etc. etc. And without heaters in the winter I know a fellow (maybe the guy who bought this one in Italy and took it Boise Idaho , and later moved to Lake Oswego) who had scrape the ice off both sides of the windshield going over the Blue mountains from Pendelton Oregon to LaGrande in the dead of winter after unloading it in Seattle off the boat. And he was freezing in his skimobile gear too. So it is a summer, go out an goof off three or four days a year car. But how neat. I know I cannot afford it. I dared not tell my spouse I put in a first bid that we all know will be a big joke. But is someone buys this, I'd like it to be close to Seattle so I can borrow it once in a while.

[67alloy]

Well, at the very least we should be able to establish a market value on what looks to be a very honest 4R, all armchair collectors be damned. Put up or shut up time. Should be interesting.

[arco27]

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoliterlover They few were made as a favor by Zagato before they went out of business to try to show respect (and perhaps curry business) to what Alfa once was, and they used what were then modern Alfa components so devotees could work on them in the simple manner one always used to be able to work on Alfa cars. These cars are totally impractical. I recall that when the side curtain are up one can't use the doors, etc. etc. And without heaters in the winter

[iicarJohn]

There is probably some fundamental truth to some of the myths. Perhaps not as to "fiberglass on Tipo 101", as quoted, but there were definitely some "interesting situations". Depends on your take of some of the situations. Italy is a country with some fairly socialistic (some would say "communistic") political tendencies. Their laws are often a bit "unfriendly" to business and individuals who aspire to do something more than simply toe the bureaucratic and "socially responsible" line. The creative individuals that we tend to admire are people who lived creatively despite the sometimes stifling effects of certain bureaucracies put in place by a government that tried to take care of the common man and woman without taking into account that not all business is capable of supporting too many of the "common" person.

Zagato, along with many other companies, went through some economic crises at various times and sometimes seems to have resorted to fairly drastic reorganizations that might truly be described as "out with the old" and these could indeed be interpreted as temporary closures of a sort. They have certainly survived as a name but there were times in the 1930's, 1960's and very late 1990's and early 2000's when the company's survival was not certain and creative legal measures were taken. And that's not including the immediate post-WWII period when a lot of debt or other obligations were simply forgiven for many individuals and corporate entities who got to "start over". As with most clever manipulations of the law, what really happened at these times is not always easy to determine. And it is not always easy to determine how much of the old survived to be a true continuation into the new.

So, it depends on your perspective. how much of the "Zagato" of today is the "Zagato" of old. I can't honestly say. It is not a simple question to ask or answer. It would be nice to know, but, "Does it really matter?". Most of us just want to enjoy our cars!

"bianco avorio con parafanghi neri" might seem like "grey" to some and yet more "white" or "black" to others?

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

[Cintos@mac.com]

Quote:

Originally Posted by twoliterlover Yes, I suspect about $50,000 reserve, but I did open the bidding.....