#915.041 in Coys auction 5.12.07

[6ccorsa]

I've just seen the info about this car that's entered in the London auction soon.
Does Coys story about it seem right?
They say it's the ex Trossi car as listed in Anselmi and later fitted with a genuine body from a 256/SS.
Details at:
Coys

[tubut]

Coys description can be found here.

I don't know and cannot comment on whether the story is correct. If I recall correctly, the Mr Tognazzo mentioned used to own a salvage yard in the city of Zurich (where the Sihl and Limmat rivers come together) that was dissolved after his death in the 1980s. Interesting that they don't say what condition the car was in then (i.e. a driver or a heap of scrap) and who restored the car.

[Zagato_Olaf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6ccorsa I've just seen the info about this car that's entered in the London auction soon. Does Coys story about it seem right? They say it's the ex Trossi car as listed in Anselmi and later fitted with a genuine body from a 256/SS. Details at: Coys

[dretceterini]

Trossi owned the car, but I believe the motor has been "upgraded" from a single carb "sport" to a triple car "super sport"

I believe that the body is a modern replica, in the style of at least 2 of the 19 real Tipo 256 cars that were built.....the figure of 19 T256 cars built comes from Fabio Calligaris

[6ccorsa]

From Coys website:
"A copy of the estratto cronologico, issued by the Reale Automobile Club d'Italia, sheet number 12098, confirms Count Trossi of Gaglianico as the first owner of chassis 915041 at a price of 79,500 Italian Lire. A later, post-war estratto cronologico, issued by the Bologna office of the Reale Automobile Club d'Italia, confirms that this very car was sold to Luigi (Gigi) Platé on 11th October 1946. Gigi Platé was a very successful racing driver, and it is believed that he used chassis 915041 for various local events, competing against such legends as Franco Cortese, who competed a record 14 times in the Mille Miglia. One of Platé's successes was a respectable 4th in the over 1,100 cc class at the 1946 Circuito di Luino race, which was won by Cortese in his Lancia Astura.

By the 1950s the car was in regular road use with a new Swiss owner, a certain Mr Heinrich Saredi of KŸssnacht am Rigi, at the wheel. It changed hands again, passing to Mr Alois Peyer of the same town; both owners are documented in an official statement from the Swiss Generalstab. The car remained in Switzerland until the 1980s, when it was owned by a Mr Tognazzo and also a Mr Meyer. The restoration of the car began at the start of the 1990s. As the car's original body had been lost by the late 1950s, the restoration was completed with the re-clothing of the rebuilt chassis using an original Touring body from another 6C, a Tipo 256 Corsa Spyder. This body was located in South America, having been removed and saved when the Tipo 256 was re-bodied in the early post-war years. Copies of photographs when the body arrived from South America are on file, and additional louvres cut into the front can still be seen on the car today. The body was carefully restored before being fitted in 1999 and the result of this search for authenticity is a car which, as well as having all correct major chassis components, also carries the original Touring body of a sister car.

Following this amazingly painstaking rebuild the car stunned spectators when it made its post-restoration debut on the 2000 Mille Miglia retrospective. The original Touring lines, being amongst the most stylish of pre-war designs, still generate a reaction with their flowing style and aerodynamic references. This important pre-war Alfa Romeo is mentioned in the authoritative book on the subject, Alfa Romeo 2500 6C by Angelo Tito Anselmi.

Finished in a dark shade of racing red with a light tan leather interior, this car offers stunning levels of both style and performance for a pre-war design and would be very suitable for another running of the Mille Miglia as well as many prestigious events around the world. Offered with current, British-issued FIA papers and various documentation."

It would be amazing if this car really had an original 256 body as stated above. Does anyone know about this?

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6ccorsa From Coys website: "A copy of the estratto cronologico, issued by the Reale Automobile Club d'Italia, sheet number 12098, confirms Count Trossi of Gaglianico as the first owner of chassis 915041 at a price of 79,500 Italian Lire. A later, post-war estratto cronologico, issued by the Bologna office of the Reale Automobile Club d'Italia, confirms that this very car was sold to Luigi (Gigi) Platé on 11th October 1946. Gigi Platé was a very successful racing driver, and it is believed that he used chassis 915041 for various local events, competing against such legends as Franco Cortese, who competed a record 14 times in the Mille Miglia. One of Platé's successes was a respectable 4th in the over 1,100 cc class at the 1946 Circuito di Luino race, which was won by Cortese in his Lancia Astura. By the 1950s the car was in regular road use with a new Swiss owner, a certain Mr Heinrich Saredi of KŸssnacht am Rigi, at the wheel. It changed hands again, passing to Mr Alois Peyer of the same town; both owners are documented in an official statement from the Swiss Generalstab. The car remained in Switzerland until the 1980s, when it was owned by a Mr Tognazzo and also a Mr Meyer. The restoration of the car began at the start of the 1990s. As the car's original body had been lost by the late 1950s, the restoration was completed with the re-clothing of the rebuilt chassis using an original Touring body from another 6C, a Tipo 256 Corsa Spyder. This body was located in South America, having been removed and saved when the Tipo 256 was re-bodied in the early post-war years. Copies of photographs when the body arrived from South America are on file, and additional louvres cut into the front can still be seen on the car today. The body was carefully restored before being fitted in 1999 and the result of this search for authenticity is a car which, as well as having all correct major chassis components, also carries the original Touring body of a sister car. Following this amazingly painstaking rebuild the car stunned spectators when it made its post-restoration debut on the 2000 Mille Miglia retrospective. The original Touring lines, being amongst the most stylish of pre-war designs, still generate a reaction with their flowing style and aerodynamic references. This important pre-war Alfa Romeo is mentioned in the authoritative book on the subject, Alfa Romeo 2500 6C by Angelo Tito Anselmi. Finished in a dark shade of racing red with a light tan leather interior, this car offers stunning levels of both style and performance for a pre-war design and would be very suitable for another running of the Mille Miglia as well as many prestigious events around the world. Offered with current, British-issued FIA papers and various documentation." It would be amazing if this car really had an original 256 body as stated above. Does anyone know about this?

[Zagato_Olaf]

Hi Stuart,

I am curious as to what the answer will be!

Ciao, Olaf

[6ccorsa]

I look forward to their reply too!
The blurb does mention that they have photos of the original body, but that doesn't of course mean that this is the body in the photos.
I hope to get down there and see it in the flesh.
Nother point about the triple carb conversion is that it is something that many would have fitted to a car like this even in the early post war period and it isn't at all out of place

[Zagato_Olaf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 6ccorsa I look forward to their reply too! The blurb does mention that they have photos of the original body, but that doesn't of course mean that this is the body in the photos. I hope to get down there and see it in the flesh. Nother point about the triple carb conversion is that it is something that many would have fitted to a car like this even in the early post war period and it isn't at all out of place

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zagato_Olaf Hi 6ccorsa and other members, I would agree that a carb conversion is something that could have been done in the early post war years. Didn't we do the same with early Giulia's (from one carb to two carbs)? Angelo Tito Anselmi states in his book 'Alfa Romeo 6C 2500' on page 30 that the compression ratio's of the Sport and Super Sport engines are different too. These are the figures: Berlinetta Sport 1939: 7,5 : 1 Berlinetta Super Sport 1939: 8,0 : 1 And to be complete: Limousine Turismo 1939: 7,0 : 1 Berlina Tourismo 1939: 7,0 : 1 Torpedo Coloniale 1941: 7,0 : 1 Berlina Sport 1947: 7,0 : 1 (Freccia d' Oro) Coupe Super Sport 1947: 7,5 : 1 Limousine Tourismo 1949: 7,0 : 1 Berlina Sport 1950: 7,3 : 1 (Freccia d' Oro) Coupe Gran Turismo 1951: 7,5 : 1 So changing the carbs on an original engine doesn't make the car a Super Sport yet. Any additions, suggestions and comments on that? Ciao, Olaf

[6ccorsa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dretceterini What I don't know is what is the difference between a pre-war Tipo SS motor and a Tipo 256 motor. I haven't found an answer, even from Callagaris. I bet they're the same. Haven't heard back from Coys as yet...

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dretceterini What I don't know is what is the difference between a pre-war Tipo SS motor and a Tipo 256 motor. I haven't found an answer, even from Callagaris. Haven't heard back from Coys as yet...

[6ccorsa]

I went to see the car this afternoon.
First thing is that the engine is wrong and has a fake number on it.
It is a post war type block which I believe were first produced in about 1943.
The block has had the original number milled off and stamped with 'SS 923812' and has a Supersport engine plate rivetted on alongside. Anselmi has this as the correct number engine for the chassis number that's being used but it should be a 1939 Sport engine and of course should be the prewar type block. I have engine S 923911 (99 engines later) which is a prewar type block and also Sport not Super Sport.
The chassis number is clearly stamped on a very unblemished raised section of the front cross-member. This is not at all like the number stamped straight into the front cross-member of my 1940 6C2500 chassis (ie not on a raised section). I do not know if some were done like this. Can anyone else comment?
I have to say when I know that one substantial thing on a car has been faked it makes me wonder about everything else. It might be a converted post war chassis too, but it would need a careful look at the prewar style crossmembers to see if they look to be original to the rest of the chassis.
The front hydraulic dampers are later post war type as are the alloy borrani wheels, but that's not a crime.
I can't make any comment on the bodywork as to it's originality from what I could see.
Having said all this it is a very nicely built good looking car and should be fun to use.
I'll post some photos when I get time in the next few days.

[iicarJohn]

Stu, You amaze me. Not always in a good way!

There is so much ignorance, innuendo and poorly researched commentary in your posting #6 that it is hard to even consider being a part of this thread.

To summarize, see title ...............

[Alex]

Gentlemen,

This isn't edifying to see. Where I come from, dirty washing isn't laundered in public.

And it's irrelevant whether or not anyone researching the history of a car is a potential purchaser or not. If anything, people with serious money are rarely serious historians. Everyone and everything has its place.

Just my tuppence.