Chassis Numbers for 6C 1750 and 1500

[iicarJohn]

Hi Peter,

This plate was issued originally in Milano during July of 1928. I've not traced it yet but there is a very similar plate that was re-issued to an Alfa Romeo 8C2300. "Re-issued?", you might ask.

Prewar Milano plates can be a bit interesting when research is done and here is part of the reason why. There is probably a bit that I do not understand yet. I certainly have not made a study of the specific laws that were passed (or when) and have no specific bureaucratic insight shared by insiders. The following is based on information shared by others who have done similar researches as well as personal observations gained while doing several hundred (if not a thousand or more) license plate researches in order to learn chassis numbers (sometimes engine numbers) and ownership histories of cars seen in period photographs. Information has also been shared by others, most notably Lorenzo Boscarelli, Corrado Bellabarba and Adolfo Orsi. There have been others as well, including Alessandro Bruni, Simon Moore, Angela Cherrett, Luigi Orsini and many more.

The system of plates that concern us for these cars historically had its beginnings in 1927. At some point after Mussolini gained a certain level of "supreme" power and sought to bolster his power base even farther, he tried to conserve and transfer and imply as much prestige as possible to the Rome area, evidently so that it would be considered the center of Italy ... if not the Universe. As part of this vision, Mussolini decreed in some legal fashion that no other area license plate in Italy could have a number higher than the highest plate number that had been issued in Rome at that time. It seems more than a bit preposterous now but it maybe seemed like a good idea at the time? Since Milano either had, or was to have shortly after the creation of this new plate system, more cars registered for circulation, the Milano office had to get creative in order to comply with the edict/law. They settled on a system to re-use plates that had been turned in once cars went elsewhere to be re-registered. I have not done an exhaustive search yet to try to determine when the re-use system was first employed, but the earliest indication I've seen thus far is 6 June 1929 for an earlier plate that was reissued on that date.

As something of an example, you might find the following a bit interesting?

The plate Milano (MI) 23769 was first issued 23 July 1928 to a Fiat "12HP". Apparently that car was either sold elsewhere or destroyed and the plates turned in.

The plate was issued again 10 July 1930 to a Fiat 514 which was subsequently sold March 1932 to someone in Varese where it acquired a new plate issued there and the Milano plates turned in.

Then the MI23769 plate was in use again by 1933 on an Alfa Romeo 8C2300 N. 2211092 but Simon Moore says that the official entry in the Milano PRA (Pubblico Registro Automobilistico) pages were not recorded officially with the change until March of 1937. Sometimes there are curious anomalies in these records! Simon asked me years ago do research in Torino on another car that was owned by Italian Royalty. When I did so, the pages were blank! In any case, this Alfa was also owned by a family who was either considered Royalty or was not far off from being considered "royalty". There may have been some level of anonymity that was accepted by the licensing authorities as a result? The MI23729 plate was recorded just in time for the car to be sold March 1937 to a new owner in Torino where it was re-registered in April and the Milano plates turned in once again.

Then, the Milano plates "MI23769" were re-issued again in May of 1938 to a Fiat 500 Topolino. By the time the Fiat was sold on in November of 1948, Mussolini and his prewar laws and decrees were no longer a factor and the plate was not used again.

So, each time a plate was turned in, the number became part of a pool that could then be reissued after a time. There were probably some internal guidelines about the minimum time necessary to avoid potential confusions with the previous user, so it probably would not have been re-issued immediately.

There was a system for tracking all of these new plate issues but even so, the Milano PRA employees oftentimes have extra work to do when someone such as myself comes along and asks them to check out a plate of the 1930's! And I have to stand in line with many others, some of whom are trying to identify the #$@^^%& who hit them in a parking lot and did not stop to take responsibility. Understandably, my research sometimes has had to wait for more important work to be done first.

If the plate you see in the photo really is MI23729, it could be the original issue of the plate or it could have been a re-issue. If the photograph is dated "1928", there might be an implication that it was the original issue plate. If not, the plate could have already made history on another car.

In the "What if" department ... Going back to the Fiat Topolino that carried the plates that once graced an Alfa Romeo 8C owned by royalty or near-royalty. If the Fiat did still exist on that Milano plate, it might be tempting to the owner to build an Alfa Romeo 8C2300 around the plate? Or perhaps he'd have to at least consider the possiblity that the plates might be worth more to the Alfa owner today than his car is worth! Sometimes fantasies are even more absurd if they could be true!

John

[Superleggera]

Here´s some pictures of the above car.
The "basket case" on the trailer shows the car upon arrival in Sweden in about 1964. The black and white picture and the first page of the magzine dates to around 1976 when the restauration was completed.
The colour pictures shows the car when it was exported (most likely) a few years ago. One can see it has suffered from long time storage.
Anyone knows of it´s whereabouts today ?
Björn in Sweden

[Superleggera]

Here we go, The car is with it´s 4th owner who bought it in 1953. The car was bought new in 1930 by a Joseph Patrick in the UK. UK Reg OV3264.
The car should have been racing at Brooklands in 1931.
This should be the only 6C1750 bodied by Corsica of Corsica Lane/Road in London.
Enjoy.
Björn in Sweden

[Superleggera]

The below car has spent about 10-15 years in Sweden and is a lovely runner.
Pictures taken at the 2008 Thulinträffen in Landskrona South Sweden.
Enjoy.
Björn in Sweden

[iicarJohn]

It has been pointed out to me that the "BEWARE" notation associated with chassis "8513081" might be cause for concern to some. Because the listing was edited down to cars that had worn or might have worn GB/UK plates, I agree that it does stand out a bit in this listing. It is not intended to imply anything necessarily sinister. I have not gone and seen the engine from 8513081 myself but I do have somewhat reliable information that the original engine is on display in a military museum at Cecchignola near Rome. Similar comments about the chassis/car are more vague and might have been misinterpreted? In the overall listing, similar warnings could be given about several additional chassis numbers as well. Each case is unique and perhaps we will get to discuss some of them here in the future?

I should point out, however, that the Swedish "8513081" shown above does not seem to be the same car that claimed the same chassis number and which was offered at auction 1998, 2001, 2002 and which may have sold finally in 2003. Of course, if the rough time period in which the car was reportedly sold to Sweden was incorrectly related, the implications might be different.

John

[spider1975]

The car was registerd in Sweden 5/8 1998. The car must have been in Sweden then.

Magnus

[ar51matta]

Damien,

you can correct:
????????? 6C 1750 AXG 965 (advertised by Gregor Fisken in 1999)
is : 0312902 6C1750SS 3rd serie 1929
was with Peter Sutcliffe, UK and is now mine in Germany with plates: CO-X60H
ex Gaspari Bona (first owner)

Martin, northern Bavaria

[dolfin99]

Very interesting reading and good pictures! I can add to the thread that not only the car completed three Mille Miglia's but before exhibiting it on the lawn at Pebble Beach I drove it 2.300 km's from Seattle throught the mountains of Washington and Oregon, along the Oregon coast and into the Californian redwoods to Monterey on the Pebble Beach Motoring Classic. No problems with the car whatsoever! It is not known I believe how many 6th series Touring spider bodies were made. We believe 6 of whic 3-4 remain (plus some replica's!). The prewar history of my car is unknown but I do know the first two registration numbers of the car's first owner in Como, Cesar Felog: CO 7816
The second owner in Milano, Renato Bordone MI 54094. If anyboy could dig up pictures of the car in that period I would be most happy to get a copy. After the war the car was in the USA. Where the story about the accident came from we still do not know as the car as far as we can see has never been inolved in an accident. Paul Grist restored the car over a long period. The bodywork is original with even the double plating under the wings (to prevent stones fron damaging the aluminium) in place.

[Superleggera]

A period picture.
The car is well alive in Sweden.

[Hambone950s]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superleggera Here we go, The car is with it´s 4th owner who bought it in 1953. The car was bought new in 1930 by a Joseph Patrick in the UK. UK Reg OV3264. The car should have been racing at Brooklands in 1931. This should be the only 6C1750 bodied by Corsica of Corsica Lane/Road in London. Enjoy. Björn in Sweden

[bellabarbas]

Hello, I have seen the Alfa 1750 GS s/n 8512092 in an advertisment in Motorsport March 1975. The history is in Classic Car March 1974 but I not have this magazine.
Today is easy to seen at historical Mille Miglia with is original immatriculation plates GN 57.
Now raced with engine number 10814376.
MM 2000 # 60 Sielecki-Sigman (Arg)
1000 Milas Sport, November 2001, #5 Sanchez Zinny-Del Buono (Arg)
MM 2002 #62 Sanchez Zinny-Preusche (Arg)
MM 2003 #47 Sanchez Zinny-Sielecki (Arg)
MM 2005 #48 Sanchez Zinny-Neme (Arg)
MM 2008 #50 Sanchez Zinny-Bartolomè (Arg)

[Cris Bertschi]

GN57 is with an argentinean collector.
Still registered in the UK, it spends some time in Argentina and Europe.

Kind regards.
Cris.-

[Hambone950s]

Thanks for the photos of GN57.
Amazing turnaround. 48hrs.
H

[bellabarbas]

and from the Mille Miglia 2008.....

[bellabarbas]

sorry, I have write 8512092, but on reality is 8513092 (seen photo)