I have a feeling this car went through several auctions, including Brooks' Monterey in August 1998, RM's Amelia Island in March 2001 and finally RM's Monterey in August 2001 where it sold - probably to the current owner.
As for Peter Harper, he is/was a dealer specialising in Rolls-Royces, Bentleys etc.
Last known address; Stretton House, Stretton, Cheshire WA4 4PF
Cheers,
Damien
Yes, the car unfortunately was overvalued by the widow, and became very "shopworn" was it passed through auction to auction... Much was recounted in Sports Car Marketplace's Alfa Romeo Buyer's Guide
-Here's a photo from Monterey this year of myself and Martin Swig in 0211462..
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1966 Giulia Super (current)
1966 Giulia Super (R.I.P.)
1967 GTV (R.I.P.)
1955 1900CSS (R.I.P.)
Last edited by Il Vecchio; 08-29-2008 at 03:07 PM.
Reason: Add photo
Yep, another one of the many incredible Alfas at Monterey. Does anyone happen to know the serial number or some history of the 6th series 6C 1750 Touring sitting on the lawn at Pebble Beach?
Hugo Modderman was listed as the lucky owner and I have him down as having run the Mille Miglia last year in the car. So, it is not just a show queen.
Very nice "Flying Star" body that is not as ornate as some.
It has Siata "Telesnub" hydraulically adjustable dampers at the rear. French-made (or market?) "Hartford" at the front with normal wing nut adjustment.
At the left front, it proudly displayed the frame number "12835042" which some people like to hide as it can confuse others. Occasionally mistaken as a chassis number, it was actually a part of the car long before a chassis/engine number was assigned. It was an important part of the build process, just as the last digits of the crankcase number (not the engine number) was used as something of a scocca number before the chassis/engine numbers were assigned.
Last edited by iicarJohn; 08-29-2008 at 11:09 PM.
Reason: "At the left front," added.
Yes, a truly beautiful example - as was the 8C 2300 Team Car alongside.
Any idea how long the current owner has had the car?
The last time it crossed my radar was in 2001, passing through Bonhams' Olympia auction in December.
Before that, according to the catalogue, in the USA for many years then damaged in a crash and sold to Paul Kunkel in England, for whom it was restored by Paul Grist.
I believe I may have gotten a bit carried away with this, but I assure you it could be much worse(!) ... or better? I have changed the format a bit from Damien's as I already have my information listed a bit differently. For example, I do not separate the numerical digits from the letters in most cases even though it is more pleasant to view with the eyes and is often more representative of what we see on a car. I have changed the data in my lists to make it more easily found with a text search in the computer and have standardized on no spaces for that purpose. For similar reasons, I do not place other artificial "separators" into chassis or engine numbers. For example, "0111.200" was not something that actually appeared on a car or an engine, even though the characterization sometimes appears in lists from Alfa Romeo. The only place I've ever seen that sort of number characterization appear is in a listing ... and on an Alfa Romeo 8C engine that is in the Museo at Arese, something that makes me pretty convinced that the engine number stamping was a Fusi invention for the museum. The detail looks good in the museum but is mighty perplexing when I try to place it in context with cars and engines seen elsewhere in the world.
Here is the same listing in two formats. There is one tiny detail difference ... and the first to point it out to me will win .... not much, but I'll let you know!
The listing is presented in the seemingly popular .pdf format as well as the original MS-Excel format ("Boo!, Hiss!") but the Excel format will allow you to see a few bits of information that are hidden in the .pdf format. Plus, if you are the sort of person who wishes to take the listing and run ... and modify it to make it your own ... then you may find the Excel file a bit more convenient!
As long as I was going through my listings so as to add some information to Damien's information already posted here, I thought, "Why not add a bit more depth?" ... meaning "complexity". So, you'll find some Alfa Romeo RL cars added. Plus a lot of GB/UK registration plates that were missing from Damien's listing. Plus a lot of cars that are as yet unidentified but which have or had GB/UK plates. Plus a number of cars that spent time in the UK but which have no number plate reported (yet) for them. Plus a number of comments about different engines fitted to certain chassis, etc. Such engine swaps can confuse us if we assume they are all (or even mostly) original. I'm sure that there is more to do here if the reporting wishes to be thorough. This is just a start.
You might find the reference to a Bugatti that has/had an Alfa 6C engine fitted a bit of a stretch as to the concept of this list ... and so do I. But there is at least one more reference in a similar vein to prove that I do not think it impossible that some bit of interesting information might come one day from suggesting that there might be value in studying such "long shots".
Once again, there are several kinds of questions posed in these sorts of listings from me. A basic question is implied by a missing item of information. If you know something pertaining to these cars that is not shown by the listing ... PLEASE SHARE IT! If you know something that will correct a piece of information that is incorrect or misleading, PLEASE SHARE IT! If you see something written in red that you can clarify, PLEASE SHARE IT! Ditto for anything that appears with the all-too-common question mark or marks!?!
I have some insights simply because of the length of time I've been collecting information and have been trying to make sense of it. I do not know things in some magical way that is unassociated with seeing a car or otherwise learning from others and/or historical records that can be located. This listing incorporates some information that has been observed personally but far more that has been observed by others and shared in some fashion. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of any of it ... except for what I have seen. Even then, there is the possibility of misinterpretation at times. This is presented with the best of intentions but there are undoubtedly errors.
I could spend a number of months working on making this list more precise but simply do not have the time to devote to it at this time. I would be very pleased to have some help! Your help!
What you've all been waiting for ... The frame number! At least, it is what I would have been waiting for ...!
This number was assigned to the chassis as it was being made. It came long before there was a chassis number assigned. Elsewhere, engines were being built and they also had their own numbers ... that do not relate directly to the chassis number. The same is true of many other major components in these cars. Only when the components were brought together and a completed running car (still without body) was there the task of assigning the actual chassis and engine number.
Despite admonitions to avoid using the word "always", these cars always had matching numbers when they were built because that is how they were built. The matching numbers part of the equation happened late in the game. That's not to say each car always had matching numbers when it was first sold ... or taken back in on a trade, refurbished and sold again. At that point, it was simply a used car. Every now and again there is an anomaly in numbering that we can say is historic simply because the history of the car is well known back to the 1930's. Those anomalies can be fascinating but should not distract us from learning what we can about the majority of the production.
If a chassis is missing this frame number, it might be a replacement chassis or ... it may be that the number was removed by some person who was told by an over-zealous bureaucrat/inspector that his car could not have two chassis numbers. One car that has known history dating back to the thirties in England has neither a chassis number nor a frame number to be found on the chassis! Very puzzling! But, the cars were made by men and not by gods. Undoubtedly, some of them were imperfect men.
Last edited by iicarJohn; 08-30-2008 at 03:04 PM.
Reason: Added detail
Early Zagato bodies (1929 and earlier) were probably numbered but I've not yet had an opportunity to look one over carefully. The short answer would be, "Look everywhere!". More detail than you probably wanted to know follows:
Zagato was quite inconsistent with their body numbering. At least, after seeing some small number of cars over the last 20+ years I would have to say that they seem inconsistent from the 1930's through the 1950's, particularly for cars that were built individually rather than in a real production line. Sometimes the numbers are easy to find and sometimes not. I saw a 5th series car (6C10814356) in July that carries three different Zagato numbers (at least) in various places by the time I finished looking carefully. It was partially disassembled and beginning a complete restoration so I didn't have to do much more than wander around and pick up pieces to have a look. Very convenient!
One number (987) was clearly the actual Zagato number for the car. This was also a billing number or something we might call a "work order" or even "P.O.". Some structural pieces were stamped "980" while wrapped in alloy painted "987". One door latch pull-bar (internal to the door) was marked "981" while on the other side, the same part is marked only "9" with the rest of the number presumably unstamped. I can theorize that this car was built in greater haste than usual using components already partially completed for another car (980) that was perhaps deemed not as important to finish quickly? Perhaps the entire structural framework from work order "980", already mostly completed, was used to build work order "987"? It is fascinating to think that we might be able to figure it out at this late date but is probably not terribly important to the actual "working" story of the car itself. It is what is is and maybe no more? An eventual understanding may set the stage, however, for understanding more about this car and others similar to it?
The number "987" appears on other parts of the car as well, including the wood framework of the seat back (painted), on the undersides of the floorboards (painted), the spacers that run between the body and the rear wings (fenders) and in large characters in pencil on the hidden side of the upholstered panel inside the rear hatch. This panel is also marked "Sotto" (underneath) in large letters and there is a scribbled little notation that mentions "984" and "987" and some other stuff not yet deciphered. Some markings can be very faint. In fact, I just now noticed the additional notations "not yet deciphered" in the photos I took. I did not notice them in person! Perhaps I need to go look again?
Some parts of this car appear to have been stored in different places, perhaps during World War II? Some parts are remarkably fresh and other adjacent parts have been quite affected by elements and time, leaving only hints as to numbers painted on the bottom side of one floorboard for example. Two other floorboard panels, weathered very little, show numbers that are quite clear.
There are certainly other possibilities to explain the body number change observed on certain parts, one of which might be that the customer for the earlier car (Zagato body number-wise) decided on something different in the way of detailing for the opening panels (doors and rear access hatch) and these parts simply became available as a result. Interestingly, a somewhat earlier car (eastern USA) has been reported as perhaps having the Zagato body #980. If that is a correct reporting, I wonder what putting the two cars side by side might imply? There might be interesting implications ... and then again, maybe not?
To answer your question more generally, I've not yet had a detailed look at a car as early as 0211462, but for 1930 cars and later, the most reliable place to search is inside the doors where it is often stamped on the actual steel framework and/or latch parts, painted on the body and perhaps penciled or crayoned on the upholstered panels. I've also seen numbers painted or scratched on the undersides of floorboards on many cars. On just a couple of cars, numbers were seen stamped in the visible portion of framwork or trim around doors or the rear hatch lid and there was no need to remove a part or parts to find it. Of course, in those cases there was also reduced incentive to search for other numbers to verify that it was indeed the definitive number for the car!
As mentioned for the doors, numbers can sometimes be found painted on the insides of certain body panels as well as sometimes penciled or crayoned on the back sides of upholstered panels. I do not recall now if I've seen Zagato numbers stamped in wood, but have certainly seen this with other coachbuilders. I would always try to have a look if other locations did not provide the answer. Because I've found multiple numbers on more than one car, I always prefer to find a number at least a few times on a car before settling comfortably on its designation as "the number" for that particular car. Sometimes there simply has not been that opportunity.
One caution I would give while searching for numbers is that it can be easy to try to look too closely. Some of these numbers were written or painted largely and it may be necessary to stand back a bit (and unfocus just a bit?) to see some numbers. More than once have I though that there was nothing to be found on a certain part only to set it down and see it again from another angle or distance to have at least a portion of the number "jump" at me. And, I did not notice the multiple numbering of the door parts and hatch opening on 10814356 the first time I looked at them rather casually. It was so clear that the number was "987" due to the obvious paint markings that I failed to note the stamped "980" ... and then "981". Until I looked again.
It can take a lot of time to look again ... and again ... and again! But sometimes it is necessary if one truly wants to learn and understand.
Last edited by iicarJohn; 09-02-2008 at 05:14 PM.
Reason: Added comma
Quote:
Much was recounted in Sports Car Marketplace's Alfa Romeo Buyer's Guide
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