My 6c2500 book is out on loan. This car looks like something by Boneschi or a similar "oddball" coachbuilder such as Balbo, although some details look like Ghia to me. Too weird for my taste. I'll take the Viotti "woody" station wagon instead (unfortunately, I don't think it still exists)....or the Ghia bodied car with the Gilco chassis...or one of the Nardi/Alfa 6c2500 coupes...

 

Yes, its unusual design from Italy, as I assume its an Italian designer, as the car is presented in a Park in Milan. But that don't mean that it should be med with neglect.
An Alfa Romeo, with a mother in law rear seat, is to me interesting, but whom could have designed, what you call "similar "oddball" coachbuilder" , a car like this.
It must be a challenge to everybody, knowledge Alfa Holic persons to answer these sort of question.
And I think that we shall be grateful because Carlo has posted this picture and question to us.

 

I agree. Maybe someone who has a copy of Anselmi's 6c2500 book handy can come up with an answer.

Click on the word "mostra" on the left of this site. I posted this link about 3 years ago, but I think it deserves another look...You can then click on the "mostra" of Touring bodied cars, Zagato bodied cars, etc....


http://www.negri.it/index.htm

 

Dear friends,

first of all I have to apologize that I am such a lazy writer in the last weeks. But due to some changes in my office my time is currently a bit limited
My aim is to change this as soon as possible

Many thanks for starting a new thread about the mystery 6C2500 that I found in the book about the art-work of Publifoto!
Be assured that before I start a topic about a mystery car, I check my files and books carefully! And I really found nothing about this car! So the answer will not be obvious in the Anselmi 6C2500 book!
That makes it even more interesting

My thoughts about the car are indeed very ambivalent.....
This 6C2500 obviously carries style elements of the post- and prewar period. This fits the date 1948 in the text below the photo. The form of the body clearly shows the latest style elements of the postwar period, whereas the funny mother-in-law-seat in the rear is a typical prewar element.

I think it's evident that we are talking about a one-off.
So it looks to me it as if the design of the car was very much influenced by the customer who ordered it. This could explain the unique styling and the mixture of style-elements.
Ordering such a one-off car during the period short after the war, meant of course that the customer must have been very wealthy!
I wouldn't be surprised if the car was shown at some Concours events, at the Villa d'Este, Villa Olmo or so. Btw, I checked the Villa d'Este book also, but without result.

About the coachbuilder, I also have Boneschi or Ghia "under suspect".
But that's just guessing
We should further not exclude the possibility that this here is a rebodied early chassis....
Anyway, I will try to post a better scan maybe that helps.

Best regards
Ciao Carlo

 

Here is a better quality scan:

 

Love the detective threads. Just some opinions: This car has many interesting styling features. Note the elongated grille and the matching notched front bumper, later Boano used a notched front bumper on 1900's with stylized front grille and Touring had notched rear bumper on 2000 Spider. The stylized headlights have been mentioned, note the spears on top and side of fender radiating from the headlamp trim. It also appears there is also a trim strip extending toward the bonnet from the top apex of the grille.The fat trim on the lower body is very well matched to the bumpers providing a "wrap" arround the body. The side rear window appear to have swing-out latches, not fixed. The front windsheild is split, giving the illusion of being curved while using flat glass. The rear treatment has been likened to Exner/Lowey designs, may have been influenced. It appears the rear widow is also flatglass but the stylist has cleverly blended it in with the rest of the very curvacious auto. Is the rumble seat wind screen curved glass of flat? I think this was very expensive body, the driver is wearing a cap and tie, a hired driver? To me the hubcaps appear very similar to touring hubcaps on another 2500 I've seen on the BB. How do the doors open? I don't see the handles, but could what looks like the lock be a button with hook? The Lancia Apprilia Grand Gala 1948 to me has some of same quality in terms of "bells and whistles" although it could also be the quality of the photo. My guess is either Boano (Ghia) or Touring, I don't think it was done by commitee. By the way, Parco Sempione where the photo was taken, is in the center of Milan.

 

Thanks Carle for joining in.
Its a strange design, and personally think its open witch carrozzeria really produced this one. I have the 6C2500 book, the Boneschi and the Ghia book,and some others, yes there are elements that could lead to the above mentioned.
You have privies shown that you have brilliant tools to enlarge part of pictures.
Mine isn't sufficient, but on the last scan of yours, its looks as there is a logo at the rear button on the front mud guard, circle around.
Could you tray to focus on that part, please

 

Very difficult to tell, but could the script at the bottom of the front fender be (in script) Savio......or Boano, who did quite a few of the Ghia designs?

It is possible Malcolm Harris might have a better idea, but he doesn't visit this board very often, if at all. His e-mail is: malcolmharris@mac.com


This web site shows what a lot of the Italian coachbuilder logos looked like (there are a number of pages; the link is to page 1...use avanti arrow to page forward) :
http://www.zarattini.com/carrozzieri-italiani/carrozzieri-italiani.htm

 

The rear of this car is very reminiscent of I think the Isotta Fraschini Monterosa in convertible form, which from memory was by Boneschi.

Can someone post a pic?

 

Interesting body to say the least. What I will say here is only my opinion. This has to be one of the only, to my knowledge, an Alfa with a rumble seat. Definitely a 6c2500 for the period and front grille. Most likely a Normale with a steel body. The rear wheels have wheel covers that come off for servicing. Looking at the front fender lines, there appears to be some 1900. The front light treatment looks to be Farina. I don't think it is Sta. Farina as it would be to bold. Boneschi would be brave enough to create something for a customer in this design. Boano would be more aerodynamic from what I have seen of the 1900's he designed. Touring would be more elegant.
OK, I am probably full of hot air. I am enjoying the discusssion.

 

velocedoc
No hot air in you post.
The design is for me interesting as it carries so many diff. designs elements. Has anybody been noticed that there is a passenger on the rear seat in the cabin.
First the rumble seat witch is unusual in Italian, is only remember seen that feature on some of the small Fiats.
The cover of the rear wheels, I think it was first used by Ghia when Boano was one of the Managers short after WWV2, bit this feature I also used by Pinin Farina,Boneschi and others.
The rear window, is for me the most noticeable feature.
Raymond Loewy one the most well known designer in the world, he designed the Studebaker Champion witch was presented in 1947. He was born in Paris 1893, and started to work for Studebaker in 1936.
That car had the same design at the rear window, the Alfa Romeo is probably from 1948, judged from the picture. So to me there is no question from where the inspiration came from. But had Loewy already at this time corporations with European Body producers/designers, or is this Alfa just a copy design wise. Later in the 50 we know that Mr.Loewy did work close with GHIA under the Management of Boano and Motto for the famous Lancia Loraymo. But was there already at this time relations.
Later we se similar designs of the rear window from Balbo, Boneschi, Monviso and Lombardi.
The front seems to be standard Alfa Romeo 6C2500, with one main expectation the square heed lights and help lights. This is very unusual, and I just recall a few examples at this time of Square lights, in the 60 they become faction.
I would disagree in that it could be one of the Farinas.
I will tray to scan some pictures if the design element.

 

The design looks more and more like Boano to me, but his firm wasn't created until 1954, and the car is earlier than that.

The logo on the front fender isn't Ghia who Boano worked for before he created his own company. The logo also doesn't look long enough to be Boneschi, and as far as I am aware, Boneschi used a badge, and not script lettering.

Is there any way to focus in on that script and blow it up?

 

The logo on the front fender isn't Ghia who Boano worked for before he created his own company. The logo also doesn't look long enough to be Boneschi, and as far as I am aware, Boneschi used a badge, and not script lettering.



Im thinking Boneschi more and more: unfortunately cant blow up the pic though.

Somone must have a pic of a Monterosa!

 

Isotta Fraschini Monterosa spider. A total of 4 or 5 Montarosa's were made; all slightly different from each other. Two are 4-door sedans A photo of one of the conv'ts is at at: http://www.spaziotremila.it/Storiadell'Auto/F71.jpg

I don't know why the photo location doesn't show up as a direct link here, but if you copy and paste the address into your search bar, than click on go, it works!!??

Looking as closely as possible to the script on the fender. it could be CarrBoneschi, with the letters Carr on a slight downward slant. It appears to be the letter "B" about 2/5 of the way from the left....

 

Here is 2 other examples of written logos Ghia and Viotti, that can come into question

 

As promised some pictures of the diff design element that has been mentioned.
First Boneschi Monterosa 8C Cabriolet as an example on haw Benoschi covered the rear wheels.
Stabilimento Farina examples of the same.
I am sorry I could not find any good examples from Pinin Farina

 

Ghia was a master in wheel covering under the Boano leadership, only challenged by the France, as I se it.
I am sorry could not find anything from Ghia that resembles the design of the rear window.
If anyone has something please post it

 

Some examples on rear window designs.
Alfa Romeo 6C2500 Allemano 1947 and Balbo Fiat in 1950. Boneschi Fiat 1100 1947/48 and a Beautiful Lancia Apprilia Grand Gala 1948

 

Are those drawings from one of Fornai's coachbuilding books? I only have the Siata and Moretti books he did.

Based on what is there, I would now say Balbo on the car with the mother-in-law seat. If you look at the script closely, there appears to be a letter "B" about 2/5ths from the left. The first part of the script could be Carr (for Carrozzeria) at a downward angle, leading to the letter B...

The Allemano bodied cars don't seem to have as much "fru-fru" chrome as the Balbo bodied cars or the Ghia cars do....

 

Looking at your pictures, the Balbo lends itself to the car in question just by the fact of the rear window interpretation.
What isn't to say that the 6c isn't an American collaboration with Lowey in an attempt to reach out to the American market? With the rumble seat that would lend credance to the intended audience who would be of age and financial position at this time in life to own such a car.

Was there a post of what a Balbo logo on a car would look like?
IMO Balbo is one of the designers to go out far enough to make a bold statement.

 

Yes Stu. Some of them is the Fornai. I have great pleasure of the , not the best quality in picture, but they gives a lot of info on the individual Carrozzeria you find in other places. The Ghia pictures is from The Ghia Book and Beboschi pictures is from the Benoschi book. You can clearly se the diff in the picture quality. But the Fornai´s gives a lot of value for app. 25 Euro. I lost you mail address on the old PC. If you are interested I can make a scan of the FrontPages of what I have.

I attach a picture of the Balbo Logo. I don't think it gives a lot of trace. The Carrozzeria Balbo is one of those that I difficult to give a specific place in the market. They did 8C2500 Bodies back in the 30. But here after WWV2, they struggle just to survey. But that situation could also lead to doing something diff.
I have an other picture from Lombardi of a rear design on a Fiat 500 from 1950.
Just to get the confusion complete

 

Can you just post Fornai's e-mail if you have it? I think I got the Siata book and the Moretti book from Gilena in Brescia. My direct e-mail is dretceterini@hotmail.com

 

Wow!

FANTASTIC POST MANY THANKS!

 

Gilena appears to have all the books Fornai wrote, including some I didn't know about. Here is a direct link.. I guess I will send them an order...

Title

CARROZZIERI ITALIANI (VOL 1) 25,00

CARROZZIERI ITALIANI (VOL 2) 25,00

CARROZZIERI ITALIANI (VOL 3) 25,00

FRUA 1944-1983 25,00

GIOVANNI MICHELOTTI 1921-1979 28,00

LANCIA ARDEA E APPIA 25,00

MORETTI 1928-1986 25,00

SIATA 1926-1974 25,00

VIGNALE 1946-1974 26,00

http://www.gilena.com/negozio/home.asp?id=487102688&da= (click on search by author and type in Fornai)

 

Lombardi of a rear design on a Fiat 500 from 1950.
Just to get the confusion complete

The plot thickens...
I have never heard of Lombardi, but your Fiat 500 makes the match to the designer just by the rear window alone.

Wouldn't you believe that one designer sees something unique from another and takes his own creative pencil to come up with another interpretation. So which comes first? The chick or the egg...or in this case...Balbo or Lombardi?

 

Can anybody blow this up better?

It looks like the Boneschi logo but that is all ..........

Who was using Square headlamps and rear mounted semaphores?

 

velocedoc: Wouldn't you believe that one designer sees something unique from another and takes his own creative pencil to come up with another interpretation. So which comes first? The chick or the egg...or in this case...Balbo or Lombardi?

You are absolutely right it is borough elements
I mentioned Raymond Loewy in an earlier post. As I se it, he was the first to use this rear design in 1945/46, if I recall right. Al the others are borough ideas. In connection with the Lombardi from 1950. I suppose a customer just walked into the bussines, and ordered a Fiat with that rear end design, and the standard front.
But borough design it is. But it makes it so dam difficult to identifies the body builder
A few pictures of Studebaker Commander

 

vroom: nice job with enlarging the logo.But I think we are on a wrong track with Boneschi

I have tried to trace the Boneschi logo that is on this site web site posted in post 8.
In the book about Carrozzeria Boneschi, I am unable to find any indication of that logo used on any of pictured car in the book.
If you look at the picture of the Fiat 1400 and the Lancia and the Monterosa 8c, at the rear upper part of the front mud guard, you will se what is used. The shield with a springing Dear with a crown on the top.
At the end of the 50 beginning of the 60 the logo changes to the rectangular that shown at the button of the site at attach Benoschi logos . It is a scan from the Benoschi book.

 

I see where you coming from and agree.

Boneschi is indeed a long shot!

I'm intrigued by the square lights so I will try and follow that clue for a little bit.

I must say that if it wasn't for the fact the car is pictured in Milan, I would almost be tempted to look at some non Italian Carroserie.

Many thanks, John