Carlos Unknown 6C2500

[velocedoc]

Here is a picture from an unnamed source that also reflects the rear window treatment. It is a Lancia Aprilia 1500 Monviso (what ever that is).

The Studebaker is certainly a styling all of its own as was the bullet nose. Ala Tucker maybe? One begats another. The GTV has several cars in its design.
Anyone have a Savio logo? Maybe it was CarrozerriaSavio on the side of our mystery car?
The people in this thread just amaze me at the depth of your knowledge.

[dretceterini]

Monviso is just another of the dozens of small Italian coachbuilding firms.

Savio badge (although they had others....and they still exist, building mainly trucks)

http://www.zarattini.com/carrozzieri...ani/savio1.jpg

[Freccia]

I was able to speak Tito Anselmi about his picture and he told me that during the research for his 6C 2500 Alfa Romeo book (about ten years ago!) he surely saw the picture in a period issue of the magazine Auto Italiana.
The car was built by a minor Milanese coachbuilder, maybe one named Meteor, but unfortunately he did not keep a record, nor a copy of the page.

Is this the right direction ?

Luc Colemont

[Freccia]

of course "his picture" should be "this picture"...

sorry,

Luc

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freccia I was able to speak Tito Anselmi about his picture and he told me that during the research for his 6C 2500 Alfa Romeo book (about ten years ago!) he surely saw the picture in a period issue of the magazine Auto Italiana. The car was built by a minor Milanese coachbuilder, maybe one named Meteor, but unfortunately he did not keep a record, nor a copy of the page. Is this the right direction ? Luc Colemont

[2000 touring sp]

velocedoc
Thanks for posting the Lancia Aprillia by Monviso.
In my eyes its as close we come to similar design, and with out the badges ,I would gladly "state" these cars came from the same Carrozzeria.
In the book "!Carrozzeria Italiano" is there stated regarding Monviso.
"Among the most interesting models from this firm , the following are especially noteworthy: the 1949 Lancia Aprillia coupe with wrap-around rear window. The Stella Alpina sports model on Fiat 1100 B or E chassis and Rondine Sport on Fiat 1400."
Monviso was short lived and after cooperation with Ghia. It was finally absorbed by Ghia in 1955.

Interesting thoughts with comparing the Champignon with the Tucker, I could go further and take the Monofaro (single headlamp) in the Italian design into consideration. I don't know whom came first. But it could be a basic for am individual tread.

Freccia.
Interesting connection. Re stated by DR. I would say the demand for producing a car like The Alfa is much more demanding than producing a etceterini.
But in the book about the 6C2500 by Anselmi, it is stated that Stabilimento Monviso got the chassis 915384.
Do you have a possibility, by using you connection, to verify if there is surfaced more info on this chassis.

[carlo]

Many thanks to all for your efforts!!!

About the photo itself, I am very sorry that I cannot enlarge it further. The actual photo in the book is quite small in fact.
Please allow me a short remark, as I think identifying the car by its badge leads us not further.
We should also focus on the rectangular headlights, like Luc already mentioned!
Those must have been very unusual. When you check the 6C2500 book, you will see what I mean, as you won't find any version with them. I think in 1947 those items must have been an absolute eye-catcher!

Luc, many many thanks for your sofisticated contribution!
Interesting to hear Mr. Anselmi's comment on the photo. I think his hint will bring us to the sollution of this mystery.
Btw, I ask myself why the car doesn't appear in the 6C2500 book as Mr. Anselmi was aware of this remarkable car

Whatever, obviously the answer lies in an issue of the Auto Italiana.....
Just need to find the right issue

Best regards
Ciao Carlo

[2000 touring sp]

Carlo;Btw, I ask myself why the car doesn't appear in the 6C2500 book as Mr. Anselmi was aware of this remarkable car.
I fully agree, and one ask, one selves what ells can have been omitted. It does raise the question, is it the Authoritative work, that it is expected to be.

but clearly it is a difficult one you have presented.
Opposite you, I think the badge is the only way to find the official Carrozzeria for this car. On the other hand I think, that we in this case are in a situation where we have 2 diff carrozzeria. One official the badge, and an unofficial, that has produced the car as sub supplier.
We know from other examples, that there was a lot cooperating between the diff companies.
On the top end of the hereto we have here short after the war.
Castagna,Benoschi,the 2 Farinas,Ghia,Touring, Vignale was just entering
on second level there was company's as Allemano, Balbo,Savio etc.
lower we have the Colli,Motta ,Marazzi,etc
We have read a lot of tales about famous cars wearing a label from one of the big, but the car is actually produced in one of the small Carrozzeria. the cooperation between Colli and Touring. The tales that all Siata cars is actually build by Motta regardless of what badge the body whereas.
To me the badge testifies at what Carrozzeria did the design of the car. But where a actually was build was a question of the free production capacity at the company who received the order.
I think this car in question is one of this cases where there is 2 diff. carrozzeria.
If we look at the design of the car, it is so diff. from what else we se from the period Italian designs. I is hard to find any trace, at least I don't have the ability, elements to a specific designee or carrozzeria. The design is simply to odd for Italy at this time.
So for me the first trace is the badge. It would be nice if the Auto Italiana turns up with the answer, but if we relay on it, I think, Carlo, that you have a Mystery that you car carry with you for a long time.

[dretceterini]

As difficult as this car is to discover exactly what it is, try tracing the history of some of the etceterini. As they passed from owner to owner, many things were modified by a secondary coachbuilder and even motors were changed from one brand to another along the way.

As to Anselmi's 6c2500 book, I think it is probably as good as it will ever get. Hopefully, someone will do a book on the 6c2300 and 6c2300B cars...

[Freccia]

I completely agree with Stu that the Anselmi 6C2500 book is still one of the best Alfa Romeo books that were ever published. The amount of photographic material is outstanding as is the quality of all the pictures. Perhaps that was the reason that Tito did not included the Auto Italiana picture in his book.. The index with all the chassis numbers and first owners is an incredible amount of valuable information for all of us... It's true that it gives the impression that it is a catalogue of all the 6C2500 that were produced, but as we know there are still unknown and "hitherto" unreported cars.... But that makes our passion even more interesting....
I hope I will find some time to go a library in Eindhoven were they still have many of these Auto Italiana magazines...

Luc

Luc

[velocedoc]

it has always been my conjecture that when a buyer wanted an Alfa Romeo, they would go to the company and order the chassis (sport/Super Sport). Alfa Romeo would then offer a choice of standard chassis builders and body styles. The company would be contacted upon choice, the chassis delivered and the owner contacted by the coachbuilder. The two would collaborate on what ever personal choices would be made available as the car came together once the chassis was fitted with the body. I am thinking that if you had the money to buy a car of this stature in this time period, (aka buying a top end Ferrari) you could even go find your own body builder to hammer out what ever you wanted. As you say in a previous post, there were 3 levels of coach makers. I never would have imagined there were that many levels let alone that many people out making bodies.
After the war, there must have been a lot of people competing for attention and the Lira hoping to become a major player in the making of bodies for the few chassis builders. The evolution of stardard bodies into racing bodies would have certainly captured the eye of those seeking someone on the cutting edge. The rear window treatment in our discussion car would have been out on that edge vying for attention. I know this is probably retoric, but felt like I needed to say my mind.

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by velocedoc it has always been my conjecture that when a buyer wanted an Alfa Romeo, they would go to the company and order the chassis (sport/Super Sport). Alfa Romeo would then offer a choice of standard chassis builders and body styles. The company would be contacted upon choice, the chassis delivered and the owner contacted by the coachbuilder. The two would collaborate on what ever personal choices would be made available as the car came together once the chassis was fitted with the body. I am thinking that if you had the money to buy a car of this stature in this time period, (aka buying a top end Ferrari) you could even go find your own body builder to hammer out what ever you wanted. As you say in a previous post, there were 3 levels of coach makers. I never would have imagined there were that many levels let alone that many people out making bodies. After the war, there must have been a lot of people competing for attention and the Lira hoping to become a major player in the making of bodies for the few chassis builders. The evolution of stardard bodies into racing bodies would have certainly captured the eye of those seeking someone on the cutting edge. The rear window treatment in our discussion car would have been out on that edge vying for attention. I know this is probably retoric, but felt like I needed to say my mind.

[2000 touring sp]

Thank you, thank you I love you chaps on this forum.
I fully agree that the 6C2500 book by Anselmi is a terrific book, yes, its the best on 6C 2500 serie and the pictures is of extreme good quality. I don't disagree in the superlative statement on either of you DR or Freccia.
But I do also find it acceptable to raise the question. Is it so authoritative as we would like it to be, or expect to be. When a picture of a car like the one in question, is omitted by reason we don't know. But if the reason for the omission only by the reason on picture quality. I disagree with the decision. And if it omitted by the reason of unknown origin it could just had been stated, "unknown Carrozzeria".
But I accept that the content of any given book is up to the editor, and the editors right.
Yes, Freccia, none has stated that the 6C2500 book contains all cars produced on 6C2500 chassis, and from the chassis number there is some we don't know about, but with the access the editor has had to all main <<<Archivo>>> one does expect, that what was known at the time the book went into print, is also contained in the book, or at lest I do.

velocedoc. Generally it was not usual the a chassis was sold direct to the later owner. The big carrozzerie had presumably standing orders at Alfa Romeo Factory on chassis. And the body that should be mounted on the chassis would then be individual agreed, between the customer and carrozzeria. There where also some sort of standard designs from the diff. Carrozzeria that was running in small series as a sort of "standard production". I a customer then wanted a complete individual design, he would get it, but if the capacity in the factory was limited, they used sub suppliers. The reason the customer didn't go direct to the small carrozzeria, was, I expect. The customer where wealthy people and there was a great prestige to own an individual designed car from one of the big carrozzeria. Not much diff from to day, The badge on a car is still of significance important.
If one goes back to the 30, almost no car producer in Italy produced bodies, it was gradually changed during the 30 when the car producers started to have a standard model range.
This led gradually to the close of the Italie Carrozzeria, and the finally we se up in the 50, where they customaries standard cars ,primarily with special painted edition

[gtv2000]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp Thank you, thank you I love you chaps on this forum. I fully agree that the 6C2500 book by Anselmi is a terrific book, yes, its the best on 6C 2500 serie and the pictures is of extreme good quality. I don't disagree in the superlative statement on either of you DR or Freccia. But I do also find it acceptable to raise the question. Is it so authoritative as we would like it to be, or expect to be. When a picture of a car like the one in question, is omitted by reason we don't know. But if the reason for the omission only by the reason on picture quality. I disagree with the decision. And if it omitted by the reason of unknown origin it could just had been stated, "unknown Carrozzeria". But I accept that the content of any given book is up to the editor, and the editors right. Yes, Freccia, none has stated that the 6C2500 book contains all cars produced on 6C2500 chassis, and from the chassis number there is some we don't know about, but with the access the editor has had to all main <<<Archivo>>> one does expect, that what was known at the time the book went into print, is also contained in the book, or at lest I do.

[2000 touring sp]

GTV 2000 Nice to se you on this tread.
I am sorry to state ,reading you post, one can easily get the impression that you didn't read my Post.

I Wrote:
I fully agree that the 6C2500 book by Anselmi is a terrific book, yes, its the best on 6C 2500 serie and the pictures is of extreme good quality. I don't disagree in the superlative statement on either of you DR or Freccia.
But I accept that the content of any given book is up to the editor, and the editors right.


So in my interpretation I don't don't think that there is any diff in the way this book generally is valued, and the way that I value the content.
But the Author is not a Mr. Nobody. He is generally known a an Authoritative in the Italian Car history. And in my eyes he is to day the uppermost Authoritative Author in the Alfa Romeo history.
In my opinion, such a position gives obligations, and the reader the right to have the expectation that the content of the work, reflect the title and covers the diff. angle if not all the issues regarding the variety on the known design issue, AT THE TIME THE BOOK IS RELEASED .
And I am sorry, but I don't follow you line quote: "For all these reasons I find it difficult to understand that you play this book down despite you usual Alfa culture."

And if you by Alfa culture mean, one I not allowed to express ones disappointment regarding the content of a book, where the author has omitted a car with a special design as the car in question.. Sorry so I must admit I DON'T HAVE ALFA CULTURE, if that is the "interpretation" of Alfa Culture. And then levee the question of culture to an other tread.

I ad an picture of an other car that is not in the book. This car, Touring on chassis 915215, an very interesting car regarding Touring Design. But there is no new Design elements in this creation, Touring just made an other combination on known themes.
For me its understandable that this Touring 915215 is omitted, BUT I AM VERY DISAPPOINTED TO KNOW THAT THE "CARLO" ONE,IS LITERALLY OMITTED.



I think I have expressed my opinion. So lets use our energy to tray to solve the main question of this tread WHO PRODUCED "CARLOS" MYSTERY 6C2500. I think Carlo deserves it.