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10-27-2005, 11:14 AM
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6c2500 Competitzione and 6c3000-C50
It appears that three 6c2500 Competitzione coupes were built in 1947 or 1948, and that one of them was modified into the 6c3000-C50 Competitzione coupe that ran in the Mille Miglia in 1950.
One of these cars appeared at Pebble Beach this year, but I am not certain which one (the Rol car?). There was also a "replica" that was being done, supposedly with a real body in Canada, a few years ago.
Can someone please tell me which car it was that appeared at Pebble Beach and what ever happened with the Canadian "project"..
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10-28-2005, 09:10 AM
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I have been holding this question back, and I think it is proper to raise on this tread.
who designed and builder these 3 cars. I is clear that from the Alfa Romeo site , they wanted to have a car that resembled the Freccia dòro.
Was it an inside job by Alfa Romeo
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10-28-2005, 11:00 AM
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This is the one that appeared at Pebble Beach, originally restored in Holland, additionally perfected by the present owner from Washington I understood.
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10-28-2005, 11:16 AM
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The Pebble Beach car of David Smith was the team car that was 3rd OA in the '49 Mille Miglia (I used to own the car that was 2nd). The following is from Veloce Today:
This fabulous car was one of three, and the only survivor. It was originally purchased by Italian Franco Rol who drove it in the Mille Miglia four times, finishing third in 1949 after leading most of the way from Rome. It also took part in the Targa Florio and Dolomite Cup and won at Pescara. The Alfa then spent almost forty years stored under a lean-to in the Sleeping Beauties collection depicted in Automobile Quarterly. Smith found it in the back of an Alfa dealership in Belgium. It finished second in the Postwar Alfa Sports Racing class.
I have been aquainted with David for some time and know that he is meticulous in his research and restorations. The car is as represented. His car was second at Pebble and mine was . . . there (same class). - George
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10-28-2005, 11:57 AM
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Thanks George. Do you know for certain if one of the 6c2500 Competitziones was modified into the 6c3000CM-50...or is that a 4th car?
I didn't know you owned Ferrari 0004M; the car that took 2nd O/A in the 1949 MM....
There was also a Coimpetitizione being "restored" in Canada a few years ago. Some claimed that it was a standard 6c2500 chassis modified to fit under a real Competitizione body, others claimed the car was totally real. Any idea what happend to it? Mal Harris gave me the impression that the car was a fake, but have some or all of a real Competitizione body.
When I spoke to Mal recently, he seemed disappointed that the Competitzione wasn't the class winner...I can't make any meaningful comment as to who should have won, etc, as I wasn't there....
Last edited by dretceterini; 10-28-2005 at 12:02 PM.
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10-28-2005, 12:25 PM
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Dr. I am not an expert on any of these, although I know a bit about SZ's (oddly enough). I am still curious where things were off on the 6C3000CM of Rob Walton at Pebble, and why it was not in the running for a class award.
Regarding your post, the car I had was 0010M and it was the Bonetto and Carpani car. Chassis 0004M is a Lusso version. The three team cars were the same bare interior competition cars. I had always felt the Tarruffi/Nicolini car was 0012M. The Cavalino issue 44 goes in to this at length. I did a bit of research on it back in the eighties when I had the car, and some of that made it into the Cavalino article. I have not given a lot of thought to all that in a long time so it is not all that fresh. - George
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10-28-2005, 01:01 PM
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A number of web sites report the 2nd place car in the 1949 MM as Ferrari 0004M, so thats what I thought.
I am unfamiliar with WHICH 6c3000CM is owned by Rob Walton...is it the Zagato bodied spider that was painted yellow and blue, or another of the 6c3000CMs that was there? If so, which one?
Last edited by dretceterini; 10-28-2005 at 01:38 PM.
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10-28-2005, 01:20 PM
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Waltons was the blue and yellow Zagato Spider. I understood it started life as a coupe, however when Bonnier was to drive it the top came off to accommodate his height. I do not know if it was a Zagato coupe or if it was an all new Zagato spider body, and also that is just the story I heard. Pretty convincing stuff huh?
I've seen the refernces to 0004M as the Bonetto/Carpain car as well and they do not make a lot of sense if you look at the photos. Now that all these cars are in the hands of the super wealthy they can take on whatever history one wants to buy. Hmm, did that sound cynical?
- George
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10-28-2005, 01:30 PM
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 Quote:
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Originally Posted by George J
Waltons was the blue and yellow Zagato Spider. I understood it started life as a coupe, however when Bonnier was to drive it the top came off to accommodate his height. I do not know if it was a Zagato coupe or if it was an all new Zagato spider body, and also that is just the story I heard. Pretty convincing stuff huh?
I've seen the refernces to 0004M as the Bonetto/Carpain car as well and they do not make a lot of sense if you look at the photos. Now that all these cars are in the hands of the super wealthy they can take on whatever history one wants to buy. Hmm, did that sound cynical?
- George
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The Zagato 6c3000CM started out as a Le Mans/Mille Miglia coupe in 1953 with coachwork by Colli (one of 4 built...some sources say 5 were built).
It was rebodied by Zagato circa 1956. It then changed hands and wound up with Henry Wessells. It changed hands again, and was in Japan for a while. I didn't know Walton now owns the car. The car is a real 6c3000CM, so I have no idea exactly why there was a problem. I have photos of the car when it was first rebodied, and it was a solid color; probably red...
Bonnier took over the Alfa Romeo dealership in Sweden in 1954 and thet was the key to his racing career. He raced several different Alfas in Sweden and got the 6c3000CM Colli coupe in 55. He managed to wrap it round a tree in practice for the Helsinki races and sent it back to Italy where Zagato did a new open body for the car.
It was John Kvarnström who debuted the rebuilt car in the Swedish GP, as Bonnier concentrated on his new Alfa 1900 Zagato coupe in a supporting race. Bonnier also had a Giulietta sprint veloce and a 1900 TI berlina that he ran in other racing classes circa 1955-1957...
Stu
Last edited by dretceterini; 10-28-2005 at 01:40 PM.
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10-28-2005, 01:46 PM
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From the Pebble Beach site:
Phil Hill Cup
sponsored by DRS Technologies
1953 Alfa Romeo 6C 3000 CM Zagato Spyder
owned by Rob Walton from Incline Village, Nevada
I don't know about the color but I doubt it was to match his Maserati. - George
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11-29-2006, 12:02 PM
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Super-rich?
Hey George, I remember when you were the "super-rich" (or "lucky"?) guy running your Ferrari (0010/M) with CSRG. I was one of the not-so-rich (still am) guys who was lucky to be able to be there in a Siata. Good days!
More to follow on Alfa Romeo 3000CM and 6C2500 "Competizione", etc.
John de Boer - The Italian Car Registry
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12-06-2006, 09:23 AM
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Competizione
Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
It appears that three 6c2500 Competitzione coupes were built in 1947 or 1948, and that one of them was modified into the 6c3000-C50 Competitzione coupe that ran in the Mille Miglia in 1950.
One of these cars appeared at Pebble Beach this year, but I am not certain which one (the Rol car?). There was also a "replica" that was being done, supposedly with a real body in Canada, a few years ago.
Can someone please tell me which car it was that appeared at Pebble Beach and what ever happened with the Canadian "project"..
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I came across this thread on 6 C Competiziones and although a year later here are some points that may serve to clarify some views. Much is covered in Fusi and Anselmi.
The 3 cars were designed and built at Alfa Romeo. 001 was the prototype and had a different fender line as seen in Peter Hull's book. Several variations / modifications were made to the body of 001 before it was entered in the Mille Miglia driven by Consalvo Sanesi.
He crashed at Santa Marinella and the car was taken back to Alfa Romeo for repairs however, since the car had already been sold by Alfa, the new owner wanted a new car, not a repaired crashed vehicle. They then prepared a new car for the owner. This was 003 since 002 was already built and assigned to Franco Rol.
003 was "borrowed" back form it's owner ( common Alfa practice.....sell the car.....get the money....borrow it to go racing.........saves money! ) and loaned to Fangio. It was Fangio's first official entry as an Alfa team driver at the 1950 Mille Miglia.
The crashed 001 was repaired and remained at the "reparto esperienze" of Alfa until it was decided to build a new Competizione. The build job was given to Touring, but on a Alfa design. The chassis of 001 was used as a base on which to build this new car. It was felt that a new more current body style was needed as well as moving away from the dated Freccia d'Oro connection. Initially it was to be 6C based but at the 11th hour it was decided to use a 3000cc motor. This required new motor mounts and transmission change. The car was on the road for the first time a few hours before the start of the Mille Miglia and so was untested. It also explains why there are no good pictures of the car and it does not show up in any Touring book. A case of now you see it now you don't.
Sanesi was once again the driver and unfortunately in attempting to make up time due to plug and carburetion problems crashed the car badly.
It was destroyed and subsequently returned to Alfa and torched.
Meanwhile the body of 001 was fitted to a 1900 subframe and presumably used to test this new model. When I first came across this car in Ohio, it was while looking for a 1900. It was rough and not a 1900 and I was unsure of what it was.
Many years later I was able to buy the body and I began the job of getting the body on the road.
I used a modified 6C 1946 chassis and over a period of some 8 years eventually had a race ready car. I was travelling a lot during this period and one of the reasons it took longer than it should have. Fortunately I had some good friends helping including Peter Hull, Luigi Fusi, Consalvo Sanesi, Tito Anselmi, Henry Wessels and few others.
It was with their help that I was able to piece together much of my car's history and that of the other cars. It was also Sanesi that arranged for me to have one of the special heads / cams for the Competizione version of the 6C engine. Fusi got me the valve spring design and the actual springs. Having access to the Museum and spares did not hurt.
As an aside many probably do not know that Fusi could not drive, infact back in the early seventies Fusi had asked me to attend with him at an Alfa Rally. The Museum team had entered a prewar 1750. I was the President of the Alfa Romeo club at the time and one of the ways we had first met. After the car was unloaded off the transporter and warmed up by the Alfa mechanics, I naturally headed for the passenger seat. At this point Fusi asked me to drive and later he told me that he had never gotten around to learning.
Over the next few years I made sure I was in Italy at the right time. The two of us would work our way through the Museum and pick something from the roadworthy group of cars. The mechanics would get the car ready in time for the event and deliver it to the starting point. Wonderful memories! No I did not drive a 159 !
By this time I knew that 002 was in France kept in a garden and referred to as the " sleeping beauties". The Italo/ French collector Guido Bartolomeo held the key to this garden, but luckily for me he had worked closely with my friend Fusi on his Alfa Bible ( Bartolomeo had done the English translation). He was also known to Peter Hull and so my two friends asked if I would be allowed to see 002. Guido Bartolomeo had helped "rejuvenate" 002 and had convinced the owner M Dovacs to enter the car in the Mille Miglia in the early 80s. I needed details of the front grille and body opening that had been cut out on mine.
I was able to speak to Guido who told me that the owner, M Dovacs, had moved his whole collection to his castle in the South of France and he did not like strangers. Eventually after much negotiating, I was given a date to be at the castle and I think my drive down from the UK to near Perpignan has to be a speed record. In fact I arrived at 5pm the day before my 10am meeting. I decided to go up and meet M Dovacs since I was there anyway. I was told to leave and come back at the right time.
Back I went the next morning and I was taken by Dovacs to the remnants of a German bunker that was filled with the cars previously seen in the "sleeping beauties" garden. Many were also parked outside with bushes starting to grow around them. I commented on his nice collection but wisely avoided comments about why he did not take better care of them.
We looked 002 over and then he asked me what I had in cars. I rattled off my reasonable collection which at the time included other 6 C Alfas, Lagonda, Indy car and then as an afterthought mentioned my 66 Olds Toronado.
All of a sudden he got very excited, suggesting we go back and have a drink. Sure enough he opened a bottle of Champagne and seated in the open on one of the castle turrets he bombarded me with questions on the Toronado one of his favorite cars. We drank the bottle and became good friends over the catalyst of a Toronado, while below us outside the castle wall was one of the most interesting car collections ever seen! Different strokes.........
Eventually he asked me what I needed and I explained that the nose section had to be rebuilt on mine. He found that amusing since he had had to do the same on his. He had managed to get some details from 003 and had made the rest from photographs. We agreed that since we were unlikely to be parked side by side and given that mine was a prototype minor differences would not matter.
002 was in good condition and although my interior was better, the cars were generally comparable. His original motor was missing and other items inside the car. This car had been used in the Mille Miglia re-enactment a few years earlier and so it was probably the only roadworthy car in the Dovacs stable.
Back we went to the Bunker to trace the opening but my pattern paper was not cooperating and 1/2 a bottle of Champagne on a hot August morning was not helping. Off he went and came back with part of a large shoe box with which he made the pattern. I still have it !!
We kept in touch for a while after that visit and he planned to come to visit me in Canada as he was due here on business but we lost touch.
Guido Bartolomeo had hoped one day to get 002 partly because of his long time friendship with Dovacs and because he had helped put the car back on the road.
Unfortunately a few years later Dovacs sold 002 for quite a few $ and it went north.
I am surprised at the reference in these postings that it was later found behind a garage in Belgium.
At this point 002 was the only Competizione commonly known and hardly a case of being found.
It was not lost!
At some point San Giorgi entered the picture. Bought it and sold it and bought it back and then had the body removed and had another body built. This could be a problem as one would not know which body was on the car at Pebble Beach. The original body was in good shape and so it was not necessary to build another body.
Maybe 002 is currently with it's new body and certainly a different motor than the original one. So we can assume that maybe only the chassis is the real 002. I find it confusing as perhaps the Pebble Beach judges did, but then I hear that San Giorgi was one of the judges, so perhaps it all makes some sense and there is some explanation.
I ran 001 in a number of events but found it very noisy due to the lack of sound proofing and eventually used it less and less. It had good handling and brakes ( the swing axle problem was solved for me by sketches from Fusi and driving advice from Sanesi) but the power was a problem. As a 2.5 liter it ran very well, but I race in Vintage and the Alfa was put in the postwar class over 2 liter. I was up against Aston Martins, Jaguar, Ferrari, Austin Healey and so forth. Most of them in the 3.5 to 4.5 liter class. I was being blown away on the straights.......not nice! The car is now in the USA. One interesting aerodynamic point, was you could light a match inside the car at highway speeds with both windows slid open and have it burn completely!
001 has it's original body and the motor was built up using Competizione parts and specs. The motor block and frame were from 1945 / 46. Given that Alfa used that (001) chassis for the 1950 3000CM there was not much choice if one was to keep this part of Alfa history especially as it was the prototype on which much of Fusi's and Sanesi's records were based on.
Some people have referred to my car as a fake, but then I never claimed the car to be other than described. I have had the support of the creme de la creme of Alfisti and this certainly would not have been the case if a fake was involved. Tito Anselmi has a long standing crusade on this issue with much of Italian collections / shows yet he opened doors for me that made my work easier and was very supportive.
When I was done with my work, Sanesi autographed several of the pictures I gave him confirming that it was the car he drove. During our time together he had picked out a number of little details that he remembered from 001 and since all new experimental cars went through his hands and he had actually raced this same car, I was in very good company. He had also given me a number of pictures from his personal archives.
I also had to research the other cars to see were mine fitted in. Sure the 1900 connection was interesting but when I did eventually go back, the current owner had sold the 1900 parts and so that was not even an option.
And 003 ?? It was turned in to a convertible around the late fifties and lived on a US base in Pozzuoli Italy, driven by a US serviceman. I don't know how much remains of the original 003, however, the remnants are still in that area and I am in touch with the owner.
For those who look for total originality, my results may prove disappointing as it would seem that none of the cars are completely original as they left Alfa. Years ago Lurani had told me that this particular stage in Alfa history was not a good one. They lacked the necessary organization to run a racing team at that time. Still when taking in to account the efforts acheived from a bombed out factory and their GP Alfetta progamm I think the opposite is true. Maybe not enough resources to cover all angles.
DB
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12-06-2006, 10:29 AM
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Thank you for scarring the history with us, its those histories that's make Alfa Romeo so fascinating.
You mentioned the situation after the war, and I fully agree wit you statement. They did an fantastic job creating these machines out of almost nothing.
Thank You
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12-06-2006, 10:31 AM
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Thanks for the information! Are you aware of any connection between the motor in the 6c50-3000 and the 3 liter version of the C-52 Disco?
Last edited by dretceterini; 12-06-2006 at 04:37 PM.
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12-07-2006, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dretceterini
Thanks for the information! Are you aware of any connection between the motor in the 6c50-3000 and the 3 liter version of the C-52 Disco?
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No.... but Henry Wesells might. I would however expect them to be the same as I can't see Alfa building several versions of the same engine in a couple of years.
DB
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