6c2500 Competitzione and 6c3000-C50

[Writer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dretceterini At least PART of the car is real...exactly how much is unknown...

[Writer]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydroglen Not knowing who "car John" is, does not help in my reply. However some points to consider: The people who confirmed the body were Sanesi and Fusi who both very quickly picked out particuliarities that only they would know of. Sanesi was well involved with it;s building and of course crashed it. Fusi was also much involved with it. Correspondence and of course verbal discussions as I usually visited them when in Italy. Tito Anselmi was also very helpful in research. Tito has always been a fervent crusader against anything that is not legitimate to the point he has become very unpopular with many Italian car clubs as he has shown up many cars to be less than correct. He would certainly not opened doord for me as he did. And lastly who would build such a car body, attach it to a 1900 sub-frame and do all this back in the 60's when these cars were not worth bothering with? Once somebody can find acceptable answers to these points and come up with a valid alternative to all of them, it is best to leave the "eye rolling "in a dark room! I have not seen what has been done to the body/car in recent years so I can't comment on what I have not seen. All that was ever claimed was it was the first body on 001, and with Sanesi, Fusi and extensive research what else would one do? More to the point but on another issue it seems that the "other 6C" shown at Pebble Beach, carried a new body. Given that it's original engine went missing in the early 60's how much was real at Pebble Beach?

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Writer Can you tell me from your research/data how many 6C Competiziones were built and how this may differ from the report compiled by carJohn? I find some of the data presented confusing including the Anselmi 6C book. I am working on a research project for Fiat and would find your data most usefull. Regards, Albert

[Hydroglen]

As dretceterini writes, there were 3 + 1 conversion so 4 in total. More correctly 3 chassis and 4 bodies.
I had a chance to look over carJohn's report (had not done so before, as I was travelling and could not open the file from the computer I was using ). I see what you mean by confusing and certainly hard to follow.
I can confirm that the first car (prototype) was 001 as shown in the pictures on file and in Anselmi's 6C book.
I trust that answers your question.
DB

[iicarJohn]

Dorien (a.k.a. "Hydroglen"),

My earlier attempts beginning more than 20 years ago to learn more about your car and your car's body's origins have been met with such vitriol and general nastiness from you that I hesitate to try again.

I applaud your efforts to build the car that fulfills your vision of what you wished to have when you were done with your "restoration". I have seen photos of the mostly finished effort and it seems quite nice overall. I am less certain of my feelings about your need to vindicate the origins that you have claimed without any real documentation. Or, if there is documentation, it has not been shared to date with myself or others who have shown similar interest. And some of the friends we have in common (both in Italy at Alfa Romeo and in the USA & UK) who you have cited as supporting your research have indicated that they are less than entirely in agreement with your conclusions. That is probably of less importance now than the fact that your story has changed from 20 or more years ago to what you insist today. All the could-be's in the world do not make your pedantic interpretation of possibility wholly convincing.

Regarding my efforts (posting #32) to place the origins of your chassis in perspective relative to the "Competizione" cars, it was probably a bit misleading to lump your car's historical description (as best I know) together with the Alfa Romeo 6C Competizione cars. Even though you would like very much to believe that your car has a portion of the body of one of the original Competizione cars that you describe as "920001". Whatever the chassis number of the first car to appear in racing, the fact is that the body on the car that you built does not exhibit the same build characteristics as the car that we presume to be the first of the small series and which was crashed 1948 by Sanesi. I really should have presented the "Competizione
cars separately from the "production" chassis number in that listing.

I agree that the stories of the Alfa Romeo 6C Competizione cars are a bit complex and somewhat uncertain. This is probably mostly because of some unfortunate events of the late 1940's and very early 1950's that may have inspired some creative number games so that Alfa Romeo could fulfill their own wants and needs as well as those of their customers. But, to try to bolster the story of your (now ex) car with an attempt to detract from the origins of another car that seems at least to have a large percentage of the original Alfa Romeo built car seems somewhat capricious and seems even a bit desperate?

I am not the source of the story that the body you used was removed from an Alfa Romeo 1900 special of some sort. You are the source of that bit of information. At one time you said you saw the whole car, "near Ashtabula, Ohio" but that it was not the sort of car you were seeking at the time. Still from you came the observation that quite some time later, after more thought, you returned to have another look and the body had been removed and all the Alfa Romeo 1900 stuff sold. If these accounts are incorrect, then what is the correct story of how you came to acquire the body?

For all I know, the body you purchased could have come from an Alfa Romeo 6C at one time, perhaps even a "Competizione". However, you have done nothing to make that scenario probable or even likely. In fact, the car was restored to resemble 920002, a car that was clearly different in constructional detail to what we presume was 920001 before it was crashed, presumably for the first time.

There is a lot we do not know. Unsubstantiated claims do not make it easier to learn the truth about things we do not know yet. It is as simple (and complex) as that.

Best regards,

John de Boer (a.k.a "iicarJohn")
The Italian Car Registry

[Writer]

In reading carJohn posts I find them difficult to follow. The car I saw in Toronto is documented at Fiat as the prototype. I am attempting to confirm certain details on these and other Fiat /Alfa Romeo cars. The owner or ex owner has apparently much of this information.
Albert

[iicarJohn]

Hello Albert,

You and Dorien are certainly welcome to believe what you wish. If Fiat, as a corporate entity, has also come on board as a "believer" in the vague origins of 915249 as a "prototype" Competizione, as you've suggested, then that will probably be the result of some individual who has not done his or her homework. I have certainly been guilty of not doing enough homework before coming to a vague notion of conclusion. Currently I have no opinion as to the origins of the body. I am very curious to learn more.

To be clear, the information I have shows that a so-called "Competizione" car was built in recent years on a "Sport" chassis that was numbered 915249 when sold by Alfa Romeo.

I was a bit of a casual "believer" for a time regarding the body fitted to this car. The story was compelling and fanciful. The stuff of dreams. In fact, I placed Dorien's car in my 1994 listing as an unidentified "Competizione". However, more data has since been collected and this caused a review of what had been presented rather casually as "evidence", most of which had been received second-hand through mutual friends. This review has made me doubt the origins of the body as "Competizione". This doubt has caused me to step back and acknowledge that there is not enough evidence to make a truly informed opinion.

I have no financial or emotional interest in the final outcome of this debate. I merely would like to know the correct and complete histories of each of the cars. I believe that if you care also, you will join in the dialogue and seek clarification of anything you might find confusing, just as I have done multiple times even when it was not comfortable to do so. If you wonder as to why this debate is public rather than private, you need only go back about ten years when certain claims were made public and I had the audacity to ask for clarification. I was treated badly but that is no fault of the car. For me, it is about the car and its history.

Once again, I am always open to more information about any of these cars. There is the possible benefit (or risk?) that it will be organized and presented eventually in a new edition of The Italian Car Registry.

If I have not made it clear on this forum as to part of the "why" that I doubt the origins of the body, here is part of the reason. If I have failed to interpret the claims correctly, then please let me know.

Dorien has claimed that his body came from the prototype 6C Competizione that was crashed by Sanesi on the 1948 Mille Miglia. We presume that this car bore chassis N. 920001 but this is not really important to the general discussion. Period anecdotal evidence suggests that this car began as an open car that was converted to berlinetta configuration. I have seen no photos of the car in its open configuration but early photos of the car in berlinetta form show a break line between the lower body and the roof section. Photos of the wreck after the crash show that the roof section was torn off the car in a manner that confirms that the roof section was an add-on. This feature does not appear in the body that was fitted to chassis 915249 during Dorien's care.

I hope that someone out there knows something more about the body's origins. What has been shared in the past indicates it came from someone named "Bud York", near Ashtabula, Ohio. It would be nice to know something more. Anything at all.

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry

[Hydroglen]

John,

Your opening statement is amusing.......perhaps you did not mean it that way, but it is nevertheless. My earlier attempts beginning more than 20 years ago to learn more about your car and your car's body's origins have been met with such vitriol and general nastiness from you that I hesitate to try again. At no time did you contact me directly about my car, but rather spent time beating around the bush with negative comments in public forums. NOBODY, except the recent buyer, has ever asked for any documentation (which he got) nor have I seen any from anybody else. I don't believe I threw the first stone, John. You got back with interest......reap as ye shall sow! I see that this forum e mail contains your usual unpleasant style with things like "eye rolling" "wishful thinking" "pedantic interpretation"......and you call me nasty?



You write: Unsubstantiated claims do not make it easier.....I resent you insulting Sanesi and Fusi by implying that their word is of no value. Since you believe that, then you should have contacted Sanesi, Fusi and Bartolomeo / Dovaz and challenged them. You say "I believe"...........sure, with those heavy guns and my own research who wouldn't? Not a John de Boer.........but the rest of us do. You speak Italian, so you would have had no problem talking to them. What stopped you? They lived close to each other and you could have parked mid-way.....as parking is difficult in Milano centro! LOL



Given your desire to document all Alfa history, another option would be a nice day's drive over to the Castle and 002. Might have opened your eyes as to how much 002 there was!



We have vastly different ways of doing research and writing. You state in an earlier email "...it should be acknowledged that I spoke in the 1980's and 1990's with some of the same people that he has cited in past discussions to help support his claims..." Amazing feat! I had not spoken to these people in the late eighties, yet you knew I was going to contact them. They used to burn people for that trick!



You write: And some of the friends we have in common (both in Italy at Alfa Romeo and in the USA & UK) who you have cited as supporting your research have indicated that they are less than entirely in agreement with your conclusions. A rather typical "John" sweeping statement......but with no actual names, so rather pointless.



Different from you, I dealt primarily the actual owners and not "would-be experts" that had little input. Your list of contacts are people, who with the exception of Raoul, never saw the cars and most certainly not in their glory days.



Of interest, I got an e-mail from Dieter Dambacker (on your list) in December, asking for my Competizione files/ notes and my help, as he has a project that has Competizione ties. He and Tito have found my data way more detailed than theirs. It was I who walked Tito through the errors in the Alfa register much to his awe and amazement. I have a letter from Tito who confesses he is baffled by the whole Competizione issue, and racing in general. He felt Orsini was far more qualified in racing / Competizione issues, yet you do not mention him. How strange! Unfortunately, I am not able to attach documents here, or I would share Tito's letter with you. So certainly these two would have been of no help to you in sorting out details on my car, since they ask me for help. Rather comical! Busso also asked me for help in working out the Competizione mysteries and asked for a report on them in the past.



Tito Anselmi sent me the chassis specs and related drawings.....why would he do this for a supposed "recreation"? He hates recreations with a passion. I consider this a supportive gesture showing his belief in the body - not a negative one. A sort of documentation or a tipping of the scales in my favour. So if we understand your story about the people you spoke to, it would seem that Tito and Dieter did not support me. Yet one sends me the chassis drawings with accompanying letter (hence a document?) and the other asks for help in Competizione matters. You do tell us a confusing tale, or perhaps they are pulling your chain?


I class Sanesi and Fusi as owners in that they were so close to the project (Sanesi in particular). Both Fusi and Sanesi identified the car in WRITING as 001. I call that documentation and I have mentioned this before. Nothing new..... but you choose to overlook / ignore that rather important detail, and you call them Unsubstantiated claims.



Bartolomeo and Dovaz (Competizione 002 owner) also saw my car as 001. Bartolomeo had restored 002, so he knew the car well. They both felt that my car was more complete /original, particularly in its interior and engine compartment than 002 was. The pictures prove this. Amazingly they had no problem with 001 and did not see any problems with the differences that you have seen. Don't be confused by what you may have seen at Pebble Beach. Peter Hull was very confident that this was the car. Ben Hendricks, after much back and forth, had to concede in writing that there was no other more plausible source.



Some of the design differences you mention confused me also. They are your first specific, logical points I can comment on. This and the notched fenders were the reasons it sat at Leny's Alfa shop for a couple of years. I was travelling and not able to fully dedicate myself to the car and figure out why the differences.


As you probably know there were at least 3 hardtops/ cowlings made for aerodynamic testing. Both Sanesi and Fusi felt that, when being repaired after the roll over, Alfa used one of those tops. I assume that when they repaired it, they were done with experiments and possible convertibles and welded the top in place. In any case, they confirmed that the repairs were done using existing panels. I know that the seam ahead of the windshield of 001 was also on my car, butt welded and smoothed over but definitely a join.

This is were the Chelli script on the firewall was first explained to me. This was the actual panel beater at Esperienze, so another piece of documentation as also covered with Bruce Amster.


Also, there are no definitive pictures of the first car (001) in race-ready final condition, so other little details are guess work. The major point you missed, is the notched fenders - the only Alfa to have this ugly feature (as expressed by Fusi who hated this look). There was a time I contemplated having them flared in, as on the other cars and at Fusi's suggestion. However, it would have been impossible, as the body width required the step or notch to line up with the rear fender. A unique aspect to this body and far more significant than the variances in looks that have you excited.



You say "That is probably of less importance now than the fact that your story has changed from 20 or more years ago to what you insist today. All the could-be's in the world do not make your pedantic interpretation of possibility wholly convincing." I have no idea what you are talking about. You are right - I am the source that my body was fitted to a 1900 subframe....nothing new here. That is the way I first saw it and reported as such. I'm not sure how you think my story has changed.



You write "In fact, the car was restored to resemble 920002...." Hardly, it has the boxed fenders and not smooth as 002. They are different cars. You must be unfamiliar with the 6C frame and Alfa body mounting. It is very specific and my ex body meets all the mounting points. This car was "around" in Ohio from the 60's and first advertised in the seventies.....also data previously recorded. Budd had bought the car at an estate auction of a small collector. Since that man had died, there was no previous story. So we are missing information circa 1950 to 1960.



Given your belief in your high level of expertise, and your strong doubts on the body, it is strange that you fail to come up with a reasonable alternate origin of this Alfa body. It is also strange or shall we say "carefully avoided" talking about the originality or documentation / history of 002. And you suggest that I desperately throw red herrings into the mix. You write: I merely would like to know the correct and complete histories of each of the cars. Really? It's feeling a bit personal, John.



I see you also lost no time in insulting the people at Fiat.....the result of some individual who has not done his or her homework. Can't stop yourself can you? You are disappointed with the people on the forum for not jumping on perceived inaccuracies in my earlier posting. Perhaps you are the only person who feels it needs jumping on. A different opinion from Mr. de Boer equals not having done your homework?! 50 lashes with the cane and straight to bed without your tea people!



If you are truly only interested in documenting history - work with, not against, the people with the bits of existing information. If you don't agree with the puzzle of 001 going together the way many of us see it -- offer concrete ideas and documentation to support your picture of the puzzle. Civil, logical, and innovative discussion would be a welcome change from innuendo and insults.



DB

[dretceterini]

I've been trying find out the truth about the history of all the Competitiziones and the 6c3000C50 for a long time. I've had discussions with most of the parties mentioned here, including Dorien (by mail) and John. Based on these discussions, reading virtually every Alfa book that exists, and about 35 years worth of involvement with Alfa, I'm still not sure what there is there with any sense of absolute certainty. I think there are many questions about this and many other cars (such as the debate in regard to Ferrari P3/4 846, and the early Ferraris), we can never know the absolute truth....and to try and do so is a pyrrhic venture. Why don't we just appreciate these kinds of cars without analysing them to death?

[TimNuvolari]

Hi Dretceterini, thanks for shining some sanioty on what is an insane world. Unfortunately some peoples ego's can become bigger than there abilities. And they should, if you will allow my down under saying "SUCK IT UP". We will never know anything other than suppose or maybe or even probable, as opposed to clear, concise and exact. And does it actually matter, we arent talking about scientific or some great leap for mankind. We are talkin about a cool car, but it is just A CAR.
As such, like Jim's 0846 or various famous cars unearthed, can we not admire this as what it is ?. Sure, explore the history, get some clarity, but lets not take anythng to seriously, and be realistic about what they expect to find. Ultimately I would hate to think that money will cloud anybody in these situations, I know there have been situations where people have "created" histories or entire vehicles simply to make lots of cash. And being an idealist I will hope this isnt what is happening here.
Just my 2 cents worth.

Timmmmmmmmmy

[Hydroglen]

Quote:

Originally Posted by dretceterini I've been trying find out the truth about the history of all the Competitiziones and the 6c3000C50 for a long time. I've had discussions with most of the parties mentioned here, including Dorien (by mail) and John. Based on these discussions, reading virtually every Alfa book that exists, and about 35 years worth of involvement with Alfa, I'm still not sure what there is there with any sense of absolute certainty. I think there are many questions about this and many other cars (such as the debate in regard to Ferrari P3/4 846, and the early Ferraris), we can never know the absolute truth....and to try and do so is a pyrrhic venture. Why don't we just appreciate these kinds of cars without analysing them to death?

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hydroglen I agree 100% with you and Tim although you have the advantage as I have no idea who you are. The concept is to enjoy the cars but there are always the soap-box experts who know it all. I have been very lucky to have started collecting some 45 years ago and have made it a point to meet some of the key people who built or worked on the cars. I took the Packard sayng to heart " Ask the man who owns one", or who built it! Without exception they were all a great bunch of men and glad to help out with information. In looking back I think I enjoed these friendhips as much or more than the cars. After all as Jano said......un'altra baracca! Cheers DB

[Hydroglen]

Hi Stu,
Of course I remember you and the correspondence we had during the early days of the Harris newsletters! It was closer to 20 years ago..........time flies....scary!
Glad to know you are around and opinions are at times all we can go on.
DB