AC/Power Steering Serpentine Belt - '91 S4 - Page 2 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-02-2015, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, it is a puzzler . . . . I will let you know how it goes. The Belt from Gates is on back order, but the Belt that's available from I.A.P. was available and I went ahead and ordered it. It's Length measurement is shorter than the new Belt I bought from NAPA, but only about 15mm shorter . . . if it doesn't center the adjustment to my satisfaction, I can order the Belt from Gates, as its about 20mm shorter.

Thanks for sharing your ideas with me.
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-06-2015, 02:52 PM Thread Starter
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OK . . since my last post, the new belt has arrived from I.A.P. (Mfg in Germany by a company named Rofan . . . part # 5625 1000). It is better but still not right. Adjustment slot should be more centered and with this belt, I've used nearly all the slot to tighten. The belt is not slipping, but I'm pretty certain that it will, once I've run it for a few miles, particularly in the summer heat. This belt is 12mm shorter than the NAPA belt, but still longer than the Gates belt (which I still haven't ordered.) It doesn't make sense to me, to keep up the trial and error route I've been following.

Having purchased the car from an Estate Auction, I've gotten only partial and incomplete maintenance records for the vehicle. I'm suspicious that the idler pulley may have been replaced in the past with an aftermarket pulley having a smaller Dia. than original. Its pretty confined for space, but maybe 1/2" larger pulley would make the difference. Just thinking out loud, so to speak.

If someone has the dimension for what the idler pulley should be, please let me know. It doesn't appear that the pulley has worn significantly.

Still puzzled.
Don
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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-06-2015, 03:18 PM
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If someone has the dimension for what the idler pulley should be, please let me know. It doesn't appear that the pulley has worn significantly.

Still puzzled.
Don
Thats a good idea.

Mine measures 75mm.

Vin

1991 Spider Veloce - Red on Tan - Rosa Bionda
1987 Spider Quadrifoglio - Red on Grey - Rosa - Sold
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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-06-2015, 07:40 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Vin,
My pulley measures 74.295mm . . . . smaller for sure, however not so much smaller as a percentage . . . is it enough? I won't know until I've tried the Gates Belt. At times, in the past I've been fooled by a small variation creating a misfit. As closely engineered as these cars are, I suppose its possible.
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-06-2015, 07:49 PM
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Thanks Vin,
My pulley measures 74.295mm . . . . smaller for sure, however not so much smaller as a percentage . . . is it enough? I won't know until I've tried the Gates Belt. At times, in the past I've been fooled by a small variation creating a misfit. As closely engineered as these cars are, I suppose its possible.
Don
No that is not enough of a difference. I think you have the original pulley.

I go back to the picture you posted that looks like the engine is really tilted to the driver side.

Can you try to take another picture?

Vin

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1987 Spider Quadrifoglio - Red on Grey - Rosa - Sold
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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-06-2015, 07:58 PM
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Moderator,

Could you please move to Spider section.

Maybe, we can get more help there.

Vin

1991 Spider Veloce - Red on Tan - Rosa Bionda
1987 Spider Quadrifoglio - Red on Grey - Rosa - Sold
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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-06-2015, 08:15 PM
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Ok, lets try this.

I just measured the distance between the oil cap and the hood.

Take a loosely packed ball of tin foil. Make a ball with it, loose, not tight.

Put a piece of tape on the oil cap and tape the ball to it.

Close the hood.

The hood is angled up so the ball should be pressed into a wedge.

In the middle, I measure 24mm.

Lets see where yours ends up. I am going to guess the engine is low.

Vin

1991 Spider Veloce - Red on Tan - Rosa Bionda
1987 Spider Quadrifoglio - Red on Grey - Rosa - Sold
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-07-2015, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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Hi vin,
I just opened the Forum to see your suggestion to measure distance to the closed hood (Bonnet) . . so will take a minute and check . . . in the meantime here's some better photos of the engine bay.
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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-07-2015, 06:24 PM Thread Starter
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Question

"Take a loosely packed ball of tin foil. Make a ball with it, loose, not tight.

Put a piece of tape on the oil cap and tape the ball to it.

Close the hood.

The hood is angled up so the ball should be pressed into a wedge.

In the middle, I measure 24mm."


OK . . having done that, I measure 1.050" (26.67mm)
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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-07-2015, 07:00 PM
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OK . . having done that, I measure 1.050" (26.67mm)
Same again.

This is making me crazy.

Vin

1991 Spider Veloce - Red on Tan - Rosa Bionda
1987 Spider Quadrifoglio - Red on Grey - Rosa - Sold
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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-08-2015, 08:28 AM
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I'm not all that familiar with the S4 model, but here are a couple of things that might be worth investigating.

1. Is it possible that a couple of the bolts that hold the compressor to the sump are loose (or unnecessary washers have been placed under the compressor/on the mounting pads)?

2. Is it possible that the idler pulley is not bolted tightly?

3. Can the positioning of the compressor and idler pulley be adjusted, even slightly, at their secure points? In other words, have you tried loosening the bolts that hold both of these items in place (with the belt off), and then moving them as far "out" as possible, and then re-tightening their bolts?

4. Is it possible that the idler pulley bracket is bent and thereby not providing the designed amount of tension on the serpentine belt?

5. Were different methods used to secure the AC compressor in the different years/models, and some PO installed an earlier version mounting setup on your car, i.e., replaced the motor (which changed the compressor mounting setup)?

6. I know you checked the diameter of the idler pulley, but did you check the diameter of the compressor clutch pulley? Many aftermarket or rebuild compressors are available that will "work" on these cars but do they all have the same sized clutch pulleys? What if your PO replaced the compressor or clutch pulley and the diameter of the replacement clutch pulley was incorrect?

I dunno, perhaps I'm grasping at straws here, but I'm following this thread with interest, and hope you figure it out.

Edward
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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-08-2015, 08:59 PM Thread Starter
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who's perplexed. I've checked the idler pulley checking for play, or noise (worn bearing). The belt "tracks" centered over the idler while operating at a range of RPM . . . (not likely to do so if mount plate or bearing axle was bent or otherwise mis-alligned). The crank gang pulley appears to be original to the engine (as best I can see without engine removed). Same with the pulley on the power steering and compressor. However . . . A/C Compressor is difficult to assess because of it's location. Maybe ? ?

Anyway, the belt is not slipping for now, so I took it out, washed it, towel dried it, then took a very pleasant drive in the country on a warm and balmy summer evening.

Life is good, (For the moment), so will continue to drive it while I contemplate the problem.

I will certainly keep you posted on my progress. I think I might return to the 1st belt from NAPA (the one that was marginally too short). I want to see if I can gain a bit by completely removing the adjustment bolt, then re-install the bolt after installing the shorter belt.
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-11-2015, 11:21 AM
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I think that Norseman is on the right track about the compressor mount. The s4's have 4 rubber bushings on the compressor mounts that become mush over time. You can see them by jacking up the passenger front side of the car. The mounting bracket to block bolts were also loose on mine. Replacing the bushings and tightening the bolts will test your patience but it's doable by us home mechanics without disconnecting the refrigerant lines.

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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-11-2015, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Norseman50 View Post
I'm not all that familiar with the S4 model, but here are a couple of things that might be worth investigating.

1. Is it possible that a couple of the bolts that hold the compressor to the sump are loose (or unnecessary washers have been placed under the compressor/on the mounting pads)?

2. Is it possible that the idler pulley is not bolted tightly?

3. Can the positioning of the compressor and idler pulley be adjusted, even slightly, at their secure points? In other words, have you tried loosening the bolts that hold both of these items in place (with the belt off), and then moving them as far "out" as possible, and then re-tightening their bolts?

4. Is it possible that the idler pulley bracket is bent and thereby not providing the designed amount of tension on the serpentine belt?

5. Were different methods used to secure the AC compressor in the different years/models, and some PO installed an earlier version mounting setup on your car, i.e., replaced the motor (which changed the compressor mounting setup)?

6. I know you checked the diameter of the idler pulley, but did you check the diameter of the compressor clutch pulley? Many aftermarket or rebuild compressors are available that will "work" on these cars but do they all have the same sized clutch pulleys? What if your PO replaced the compressor or clutch pulley and the diameter of the replacement clutch pulley was incorrect?

I dunno, perhaps I'm grasping at straws here, but I'm following this thread with interest, and hope you figure it out.
Lots of good ideas.

1. Has to be checked by OP but I doubt it.
2. Has to be checked by OP but I doubt it.
3. No adjustments.
4. Has to be checked by OP but I doubt it.
5. Same set up for S4's
6. Interesting. It wasnt the easiest measurement but I get 4.1" or 104mm.

Vin

1991 Spider Veloce - Red on Tan - Rosa Bionda
1987 Spider Quadrifoglio - Red on Grey - Rosa - Sold
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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 06-11-2015, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobHalfa View Post
I think that Norseman is on the right track about the compressor mount. The s4's have 4 rubber bushings on the compressor mounts that become mush over time. You can see them by jacking up the passenger front side of the car. The mounting bracket to block bolts were also loose on mine. Replacing the bushings and tightening the bolts will test your patience but it's doable by us home mechanics without disconnecting the refrigerant lines.
My bushings were also pretty old so I replaced them using rubber hose.

Start at post 286. Lots of pictures of the bushings and bracket.

Vin's S4 Engine Rebuild

I cant believe that worn out bushings would cause this issue, but hey, who knows.

Vin

1991 Spider Veloce - Red on Tan - Rosa Bionda
1987 Spider Quadrifoglio - Red on Grey - Rosa - Sold
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