Ride Height Puzzle

[MidLifeCrisis]

I'm putting my car back together after replacing the clutch and all the bushings in the rear. I have the red IAP spring set, and the car seems to be driving "downhill".

I also noticed that someone before me put a metal spacer on top of the right-rear spring. Without this spacer, the right-rear wheel well is about 1.5 inches lower than the left. I should mention that this is with the fuel tank half-full, and that the battery has been moved to the right-rear in the trunk. I'm hoping this explains the difference and that it's not something more serious, and that possibly the new bushings will help level things out.

I'd like to lower the rear-end about 2 inches but keep it level side-to-side. Can I (should I) cut these springs? It doesn't look like they'd sit in the TA well if I did.

Any recommendations/comments are welcome.

Thanks.

[Stachowiak]

Hi,

That looks like it's sitting way too high. Did you tighten everything up while the suspension was loaded with the weight of the car, or did you have the car on jack stands when you did it? You don't want any preload on the bushings when sitting on the pavement. Also the IAP red springs should have lowered the whole car. Measure the center of the wheel to the top center of the wheel well opening, and let me know what you get at each wheel. This will give a measurement that is independent of your tire size, and something that you can compare to other members cars. It is normal to have the driver side about 1/2 inch higher. Also, do you have the deeper front spring pad on the passenger side?

Dick Stachowiak
71 GTV
71 Spider

[Alfajay]

I agree with Dick Stachowiak when he advises that all through bolts holding the trailing arm bushings need to be tightened while the car is sitting on its tires. However, I disagree with Dick when he says that these springs should lower the car. Well, OK, Dick is right when he says that they SHOULD lower the car. However, in my experience, these stiffer performance springs are often SO stiff that the car ends up sitting higher.

Needing to trim some wire off the coils to obtain the desired ride height is pretty typical. Note that when you shorten a spring, the remaining coils become stiffer in lbs/in terms. Also since the springs aren't directly over the tire contact area there is some geometry involved in calculating how much to trim vs. how much the car will be lowered. Other threads on the BB have addressed these calculations.

The first photo shows what my garage looked like on spring cutting day. I've gotten real good at removing my front springs, trimming them, and reinstalling - my rears came together in one go, but fronts I've futzed with numerous times - cut a little, add a spacer, cut a little more, try a different spacer, etc. etc.

What size tires are you running? Is your car sitting too high or is the o.d. of your tires just too small to fill the wheel wells at normal ride height? The second photo shows my Sprint GT with tires that seem more "chubby" than yours (they're 185-70/14). Yea, I've raised the front a bit since that shot was taken.

[Gary Williams]

Here's how my '67 sits with the Alfaholics Fast Road Suspension. My son's '74 has Centerline performance springs and sits at about the same height, without having to cut anything. We both have Falken Azenis 195-60x14 tires. Did you take the spacers out of the spring pans before installing the new springs? Are your springs fully seated in the pans?

[MidLifeCrisis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stachowiak Hi, That looks like it's sitting way too high. Did you tighten everything up while the suspension was loaded with the weight of the car, or did you have the car on jack stands when you did it? You don't want any preload on the bushings when sitting on the pavement. Also the IAP red springs should have lowered the whole car. Measure the center of the wheel to the top center of the wheel well opening, and let me know what you get at each wheel. This will give a measurement that is independent of your tire size, and something that you can compare to other members cars. It is normal to have the driver side about 1/2 inch higher. Also, do you have the deeper front spring pad on the passenger side? Dick Stachowiak 71 GTV 71 Spider

[MidLifeCrisis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfajay What size tires are you running? Is your car sitting too high or is the o.d. of your tires just too small to fill the wheel wells at normal ride height? The second photo shows my Sprint GT with tires that seem more "chubby" than yours (they're 185-70/14). Yea, I've raised the front a bit since that shot was taken.

[MidLifeCrisis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Williams Here's how my '67 sits with the Alfaholics Fast Road Suspension. My son's '74 has Centerline performance springs and sits at about the same height, without having to cut anything. We both have Falken Azenis 195-60x14 tires. Did you take the spacers out of the spring pans before installing the new springs? Are your springs fully seated in the pans?

[GTV4EVR]

Just curious, why are you running tires that are so much smaller than stock. If you like the 65 profile, you should be running 195-65/14 to get close to stock OD.

[MidLifeCrisis]

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTV4EVR Just curious, why are you running tires that are so much smaller than stock. If you like the 65 profile, you should be running 195-65/14 to get close to stock OD.

[GTV4EVR]

According to the online tire size calculator, it would increase the diameter of your tires by 1 inch. 185-70/14 is the "correct" "modern" size. My 69 GTV came with 165 R 14 Michelin XAS tires.

[Alfajay]

GTV4EVR had written: "If you like the 65 profile, you should be running 195-65/14 to get close to stock OD."

I don't disagree with GTV4EVR's math in calculating the tire diameter. However, keep in mind that these bodies were designed to accommodate skinny tires (155x15 or something) - as you get into lower profile tires, you increase the tire width, and may get interference between the outside of the tire and the rear fenderwell. This is aggreviated when the car is lowered, though stiffer springs & shocks may prevent the body from dropping much.

You can roll the inside edge of the wheelwell to create more clearance. But no, you can't flare the wheelwell - Bertone will send the authorities out to your garage, and confiscate your car if you mess with Giorgetto Giugiaro's perfect design.

MidLifeCrisis had asked: "My concern now is when I cut the spring it will come to a point rather than the flattened last coil it has now"

Most Alfa springs are flattened on one end, and just have a 90 degree cut on the other. Then, the spring pan has a dimple to accommodate the square cut end. So, cutting at an angle to achieve a flattened end isn't necessary. I just grind the raw ends to round them a bit and they're fine.

Keep in mind that with any spring change, you need to drive for a few miles on a bumpy road to settle the springs into the pans - ride height often drops 1/2" or so after the first drive.

[UngaWunga]

You can also grind a flat end on the spring. Just don't heat it up too much.

I'd be careful cutting the springs. As said before, cutting the springs increases the spring rate, making them stiffer. If you are already using stiffer springs, this might make it more than desired. Besides, the stance of your car looks OK to me with your smaller tires.

Drive it for a bit, then remeasure.

[Gary Williams]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfajay Keep in mind that with any spring change, you need to drive for a few miles on a bumpy road to settle the springs into the pans - ride height often drops 1/2" or so after the first drive.

[MidLifeCrisis]

Thanks guys.

Gary - good tip on the limit straps... I wouldn't have thought of that. I just got new ones so I'll remember to do this before installing them.

My plan is to remove the spacer on the right side and cut the left spring by the same height as the spacer. This should have the effect of lowering the car in the rear slightly while keeping it pretty much level, since the lowering effect of cutting the spring is 1:1 in the rear. I can always cut more later off both if I want it even lower.

BTW, I purchased poly bushings from Performatek for the trunion to diff and trunion to body joints. My trailing arms will have poly bushings in the front and the standard rubber bushings in the rear. My hope is that by lowering the car slightly and replacing all the bushings, some with the stiffer poly, that I will improve the handling on an already fun car.

[GTV4EVR]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfajay GTV4EVR had written: "If you like the 65 profile, you should be running 195-65/14 to get close to stock OD." I don't disagree with GTV4EVR's math in calculating the tire diameter. However, keep in mind that these bodies were designed to accommodate skinny tires (155x15 or something) - as you get into lower profile tires, you increase the tire width, and may get interference between the outside of the tire and the rear fenderwell. This is aggreviated when the car is lowered, though stiffer springs & shocks may prevent the body from dropping much. You can roll the inside edge of the wheelwell to create more clearance. But no, you can't flare the wheelwell - Bertone will send the authorities out to your garage, and confiscate your car if you mess with Giorgetto Giugiaro's perfect design. MidLifeCrisis had asked: "My concern now is when I cut the spring it will come to a point rather than the flattened last coil it has now" Most Alfa springs are flattened on one end, and just have a 90 degree cut on the other. Then, the spring pan has a dimple to accommodate the square cut end. So, cutting at an angle to achieve a flattened end isn't necessary. I just grind the raw ends to round them a bit and they're fine. Keep in mind that with any spring change, you need to drive for a few miles on a bumpy road to settle the springs into the pans - ride height often drops 1/2" or so after the first drive.