Water in oil - new 1750 engine

Superfly · #1 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 09:35 AM

I just rebuit and installed a 1750 for my '67 Super. I just got it started today, ran good for the first try, and as usual found my first oil leaks. I noticed that the oil looked different and pulled the dipstick to verify my what I had suspected - I had water in the oil. A lot of water. Oh the Horror!

I immediately thought that the head gasket did not seal but then remembered the oil passage mod that I had done at the machine shop and when clearing out the shavings, pluging one of two possible holes on the front of the block. My question is if I had a 2 liter front cover gasket that came with the gasket set and I had to cut a hole in it for the 1750 did I plug the wrong hole OR if you lift the head off once you put a new gasket on (which I had to do twice), could I have messed up the gasket seal? I verified and traced the galley with two other ALFA experienced shade tree mechanics and we all three came to the same conclusion on what hole to thread and plug. Please tell me it is just a head gasket.

PSk · #2 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 09:48 AM

If you torqued the head gasket it can not be used again ... I believe.

As for the modification ... why?, but I did not understand what you were talking about ...

Pete

Superfly · #3 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 09:56 AM

I think you are correct on the head gasket and eventhough it is a pain to r&r I can be up and running again soon if that is the problem.

As for "why" on the mod, I am asking myself that very question. If I do another engine I will skip the oil mod - overkill for what type driving I will be doing. Live and learn.

Thanks for the advice.

Scott

**Roadtrip** · #4 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 10:34 AM

When you say it was rebuilt it, I assume that you replaced the bottom cylinder liner seals?? That could also be the source of the leak. I think you should eliminate that as the source of the leak before you remove the cylinder head. Otherwise you may just replace the head gasket, only to find out it's still leaking. Then have to tear it apart again.

Although I've never had the problem, you might try lowering the coolant level below the top of the block then pressurize the coolant jacket and see if you're getting coolant out the oil drain hole. Even better, remove the oil pan so you can look at the liner seals directly.

As for the oil mod. I would think it's pretty much unneeded considering that the lubrication needs of the cam journals and followers are pretty modest on a street engine.

I can imagine what a PIA this is. Hoping for the best.

Superfly · #5 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 11:04 AM

I did replace the bottom cylinder liner seals. I inspected and cleaned the surfaces before installation. If care has been taken during installation of the liner seals can they still leak?

I like your suggestion about pressurizing the coolant jacket - that would give me a better diagnoses of what I did wrong.

Yeah - I agree on the oil mod being unneeded. This is the lower end mod and the idea was sold to me on the premise that #2 & #4 bearings would get better lubrication. I think for evening driving schools or auto crosses a stock set-up is good enough.

Thanks,

Scott

**Roadtrip** · #6 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 11:49 AM

It's unlikely that it's the liner seals . . . . but not unheard of. While the engine is still buttoned up, I'd as least eliminate the liner seals as the source. Once the head comes off, there's no way to troubleshoot the liner seals.

Did you use any RTV? Some people swear by it, some say it's not needed. Alfa doesn't specify to use it. Last engine I did, I used a small amount on the liner seals and it didn't leak.

Be nice to have one of those static engine run stands for the garage.

**ossodiseppia** · #7 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 12:43 PM

Some of the new head gaskets don't have the sticky seal stuff on them at the back of the head. Post a pick of the head gasket after you pull the head so we can see. If you have one of the new gaskets that's missing the seal at the back, a little RTV is in order. But, don't put it anywhere else on the gasket.

Superfly · #8 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 01:04 PM

I used a Victor Reintz head gasket - it had the sticky seal stuff on it. I wonder if taking the head off and back on messed up my seal. I noticed it had a lot of water in the oil that is why I am wondering if it is a head gasket.

I did used a little of the red rtv on the liner seals just for insurance.

I would love to have access to an engine run stands to catch all of the mayjor/minor issues before reinstallation.

It really sucks emptying the oil on a new engine and it come out looking like coffee with a load of creamer in it - D'oh!

reinspidered · #9 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 04:31 PM

Hi, little brother nosing in on this thread. The lower end mod is what is concerning us. The mod makes you do some drilling on the block to clean out the oil passages and then plug those new holes that you made in the block. When he was putting the timing cover on he had to cut another hole in the gasket and we're afraid that we plugged the wrong hole and it is pumping massive amounts of water into the block.

Anyone know of any reason that gasket would have to be modified?? We thought it was just for a different engine and the one for the 1750 had been omitted accidentally...

PSk · #10 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reinspidered

Hi, little brother nosing in on this thread. The lower end mod is what is concerning us. The mod makes you do some drilling on the block to clean out the oil passages and then plug those new holes that you made in the block. When he was putting the timing cover on he had to cut another hole in the gasket and we're afraid that we plugged the wrong hole and it is pumping massive amounts of water into the block.

Anyone know of any reason that gasket would have to be modified?? We thought it was just for a different engine and the one for the 1750 had been omitted accidentally...

reinspidered · #11 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 06:14 PM

I'll attempt to answer for my brother but he might be able to explain it better.

Yes we are talking about the oil to the crank mod. I can't remember but it seems like it feeds two and four with this mod. When we were done with the mod the machine shop left a ton of shavings from it in the oil galleys. We carefully drilled into their mod and cleaned all of that out so we're solid on that.

Second, we're talking the timing cover. There is a little bump if I remember right and that is the oil passage that we drilled to get the shavings out. Once that was done we plugged where we'd drilled and called it good. When he went to put the timing cover on the holes didn't line up for the open hole to the timing cover so he modified the timing cover gasket to accomodate. I think that is on the driver's side if I remember correctly. I'm almost sure that he talked to a vendor that recommended this and said that the gasket was just left out of the kit or something. We took that as a good answer and got the exacto knife out and went on. So the question here is are those both oil passages? I believe the answer is yes from memory.

I haven't the guts to modify a head gasket and would have done something bad to my brother if he had mentioned doing that.

I hope that gets the discussion down the road a bit. I'm sorry that I was vague earlier about which gasket.

My theory is that he's blown the head gasket and should R & R that. I think the removal and reinstallation of the head did it.

My problem with my own theory is how much water is in the oil. He says there is a lot. Any opinions on that with a blown head gasket.

Thank you very much for the help. I WON'T be doing the oil mod on my car ever....

\\trent

PSk · #12 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reinspidered

I'll attempt to answer for my brother but he might be able to explain it better.

Yes we are talking about the oil to the crank mod. I can't remember but it seems like it feeds two and four with this mod. When we were done with the mod the machine shop left a ton of shavings from it in the oil galleys. We carefully drilled into their mod and cleaned all of that out so we're solid on that.

PSk · #13 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 09:04 PM

Okay reinspidered,

Here is the front of alfatbo's engine:

You can see on the oil filter side that there would be a oil passage that goes from the oil filter back into the block yellow oval... obviously that needs to be cut out so oil flows.

There must also be somewhere for the water to flow from the pump back through the engine ... which I think is the red oval area, but could be wrong. This feeds water along the side of the block ... you can see the shape of this in the block casting. Thus this would have to be a good seal to ensure water does not leak into the timing chain chamber!

Pete

reinspidered · #14 (**permalink**) 08-02-2004, 10:13 PM

I can see clearly as the song goes..

I can see where the feed line to the filter is now. I'm almost positive that he cut the gasket right but I'm correct that both the line that we drilled and the hole in the gasket line are oil and have nothing to do with water.

*Now* where he may have blown it is in the other passage outlined in red for water. That passage has a rubber/viton/something o ring that goes to it, correct? Big question, did he install that??? Is that square cut or round cut? He was asking me.

Otherwise I'm calling it a head gasket failure but I'll be interested to find out. I'd love to go and help him pressurize the coolant system but my work week is going to be a lot of after hours unfortunately and rarely. I may be able to sneak over there though.

Once again you guys/gals should be envious of us having two ALFAs in the same family, it makes it that much more fun. Of course my brother isn't having much fun right now... Maybe I should loan him the Citroën to work on.

\\trent

'74 Spider
'72 Citroën DS21