12-06-2007, 01:48 AM
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Location: Devon, UK
Posts: 519
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73GTV - interesting point about your dizzie with the hole in the side, the advantage of being able to change your advance while running on the rollers is massive. With our 3-D mapped ignition system for t/s - you can sit on the rollers at 4000rpm or whatever and at whatever throttle load you like and just shift the number up or down until you get maximum performance and no detonation - then you know at this point it is perfect and move onto the next until you have completely filled the 'graph' - this is how easy it is to create a prefect 3-D map. Now its never going to be as perfect as that with the dizzie, but if you could really sit at for example 4000 rpm and have your graphs in front of you for each position on the dizzie and click between them you wouldn't take long to find which gave you the best power run without detonation.
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[COLOR=Blue][URL]www.alfaholics.com[/URL][/COLOR]
1966 2.0 Sprint GT race car, 1967 T/S GTA Replica, 1965 FIA App.K 1600 GTA, 1965 1600 GTA Stradale RHD, 1965 1600 GTA Stradale LHD, 1966 1600 Giulia GTC, 1991 S4 Spider, 1967 1600 Duetto, 1999 2.0 916GTV (soon to be sold!) and now replaced with 2002 3.0 V6 24v 916 GTV
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12-06-2007, 04:48 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 12
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123 electronic distributor
Max makes some valid points (no pun intended!) but we have sold nearly 50 of these units in the past 6 months with nothing but praise from the customers and have actually tested one on a 2000GTV ourselves. We are always happy for a customer to return any product that they are not happy with and the fact that not one has been returned speaks for itself.
The main distributor problem we face as 105 owners is not modern fuel (although it doesn't help!) it is wear in the distributor - my 1750GTV runs smoothly on it's original ignition without pinking on 97/98 octane fuel and does so because it has only done 20,000 miles from new and its servicable components are relatively new. Most distributors that we see have a worn cam on the shaft making timing inaccurate & sometimes there is play on the shaft as well making the problem even worse. Old fashioned points & condensors can never do the job of opening a switch thousands of times a second as well as electronics and for this reason Classic Alfa & Alfaholics have been selling electronic ignition kits for years.
If you can now buy a brand new distributor with none of the wear issues that even a distributor rebuild can't entirely cure with electronic ignition, spark balancing technology and a choice of both standard & performance timing curves - its a bit of a no-brainer and thats why they sell so well. 
The spark produced by the 123 unit is so strong that it undoubtedly makes the car run better on modern fuel than a standard distributor and also improves fuel consumption.
Most 105 customers with ignition problems have a standard engine with a worn distributor and want an easy to fit, maintenance free, modern solution that still looks "period" without any extra ignition boxes spoiling the originality of their engine bay which is exactly what the 123 unit gives them.
In terms of performance engines - curve D provides an excellent tuning curve with 12 degrees of static timing & a max. advance of 34 degrees - very suitable for fast road applications. It means that if you have a standard engine with a 123 distributor and you later upgrade the engine with some performance camshafts you simply change the switch position on your distributor - wonderful!
123 Ignition are an extremely helpful company & open to any improvements / suggestions. Forum member SKAND (see his posts on this subject) sent them some performance curves which are the ones which are now included in the distributor - far from thinking their product was perfect they were more than happy to help to improve it.
As a distributor manufacturing company they have to start from the standard Alfa curves in order that they can provide a warranty on their product knowing that it is "as original" in terms of timings for standard engines.
We do not have a UK exclusive with 123 Ignition - our friends at EB Spares also sell them here. Also 123's excellent Lucas replacement distributor for English sportscars is sold in huge quantities by many different classic car parts suppliers. Their product is fantastic - ask other forum members who have fitted them!
Richard Norris / classicalfa.com
Classic Alfa Romeo Parts & Spares Worldwide - Bertone, Spider & More
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12-06-2007, 05:36 AM
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: UK
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Super unleaded fuel: from the above posts, particularly Max Banks' Electronic ignition for 105 Giulia Duetto GTV, it seems a standard distributor over-advances for current 4-star fuels, and therefore we retard the setting to prevent high-rev detonation. However, how does a standard (Bosch) unit perform if one uses either (1) super unleaded fuel e.g. BP Ultimate, OR (2) a lead-replacement additive in the fuel ?
Last edited by PiperYelloGTV2k; 12-06-2007 at 01:28 PM.
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12-06-2007, 06:35 AM
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Dallas,Texas
Posts: 261
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Max, I've asked this question on the board before but got no answer. It is my understanding that the Bosch unit used in Alfas is basically the same as the one in type 1 VW motors. Do they interchange? If so, MSD makes a pro billet electronic distrbutor for VW that might be a good one for our cars. Has mechanical advance with 24 available curves. I've gotten the body dims from MSD and it should clear everything.
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12-06-2007, 08:08 AM
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Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Devon, UK
Posts: 519
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Norris
Max makes some valid points (no pun intended!) but we have sold nearly 50 of these units in the past 6 months with nothing but praise from the customers and have actually tested one on a 2000GTV ourselves. We are always happy for a customer to return any product that they are not happy with and the fact that not one has been returned speaks for itself.
The main distributor problem we face as 105 owners is not modern fuel (although it doesn't help!) it is wear in the distributor - my 1750GTV runs smoothly on it's original ignition without pinking on 97/98 octane fuel and does so because it has only done 20,000 miles from new and its servicable components are relatively new. Most distributors that we see have a worn cam on the shaft making.....
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2 different curves for Giulia Ti!
4 Different curves for a 1600 Duetto, Giulia Super, Sprint GT and 1600 Nuova Super - all with onstensibly identical engines
2 different curves for 1750 Spider and 1750 GTV (must be the body shape that makes the difference to the timing)
another curve for 2000 GTV & Spider
and to cap it off, putting a twinplug GTA the same as a GTC!
What the point is, they have seemingly wasted 8 or 9 curves that in theory can be covered by a maximum of 1 or 2, unless it can be explained why a 1600 Duetto needs a different curve to a Sprint GT, etc..... Then by only giving 2 modified curves (and not giving REAL details of the full curves), they really have restricted the use of this product in the tuning world, as previously explained in this post. Given the fact that all we really need are modern curves of a few varieties to cover all road, track and race applications it seems like falling flat at the final hurdle! Such a shame as it could have been so useful.....
In reality I think a remapped JF4 with electronic points kit is still the way to go for the tuning market as the end user can specify a curve for their uses, and if they ever want to change it a bit, they (or a rolling road technician) can do it easily with bob weights & springs. With the 123ignition unit you don't really have many tuning options, certainly not like it could have!
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1966 2.0 Sprint GT race car, 1967 T/S GTA Replica, 1965 FIA App.K 1600 GTA, 1965 1600 GTA Stradale RHD, 1965 1600 GTA Stradale LHD, 1966 1600 Giulia GTC, 1991 S4 Spider, 1967 1600 Duetto, 1999 2.0 916GTV (soon to be sold!) and now replaced with 2002 3.0 V6 24v 916 GTV
Last edited by Max Banks; 12-06-2007 at 08:56 AM.
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12-06-2007, 09:05 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
Posts: 1,284
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Richard Norris:
Can you tell us where the "knee" is in the "006 tuning" curve? How many degrees at what RPM?
Thanks,
Ed Prytherch
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12-06-2007, 06:12 PM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 184
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I guess 123's product is just getting a bit closer to a perfect product for us 105/115 fanatics! I must admit that when I saw their video of the 123 distributor versus the breakerless and points equipped distributors, it made me want to get one to see if it could really be that good of a replacement for my tired out Bosch  . Now I'm starting to wonder, although I still think a pre-programmed dizzy will outspark and out perform a centrifical weight one anyday-- as long as one gets the correct advance curve heheheh 
Maybe for a stock motor, kind of an everyday driver, the 123 will be a good complement to a lower maintenence vehicle, but for the price the vendors are asking, maybe points and weight don't seem so archaic after all... |
12-06-2007, 07:11 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Summerville, South Carolina
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This has been some very good reading and I look forward to more input. This is, of course, the Christmas season so who has the best prices right now, and is anyone offering a current price reduction or sale? I'll bet that little sucker will fit snugly in stocking; just have to make sure the stocking is held securely due to the weight!
Merry Christmas!
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Dale Thomas
1969 1750 GTV (Giallo Ocra)
Summerville, South Carolina
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12-07-2007, 06:55 AM
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Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Jakarta,Indonesia
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'73GTV' ,my car a 1750 gtv uses a Porter unit (Canadian made) originally for VW beetles . I'd like to know the answer to your question too....
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12-07-2007, 07:16 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Columbia SC
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I think that IAP are the only US supplier at $395
Ed Prytherch
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12-07-2007, 06:35 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 315
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1-2-3
I heard about 1-2-3 ignition two years ago through Citroen forums where it is highly regarded as a valid upgrade over worn distributors and quick wearing points. But then, how many hopped-up DS do you see running around? 
I found out the maker of 1-2-3 has a forum where he picks up suggestions for new applications. A single request had been made for the Alfa application, which received a negative reply.
I instructed the fellow (1-2-3 seems to be a one man operation) on what was needed to adapt a VW distributor body into the Alfa application (basically just a different drive, for which I provided a drawing), insisting that it would cover several applications over a 40 year timespan. I also sent him data for a few typical advance curves (from an old Shankle catalog) - I included data for a specific curve developed by Shankle.
He replied he would look at it, and that he could get the advance data from some vintage Bosch manual he has (this explains the GTA curve).
Didn't hear anything for over a year, then I found out the Alfa 1-2-3 was on the market.
No, he doesn't know a thing about Alfas. No, he didn't consult anybody before putting the thing on the market. 
Oh... the question about side vs top entry. The side entry cap is for MG's, TR's and similar applications which often a cap with side entry for the ignition wires. Doesn't apply to Alfas.
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12-08-2007, 09:33 AM
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Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 184
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Well I guess if the 123 guy wants to sell more distributors to us Alfa nuts he'd better do some research into how our motors will run on todays fuels. It's too bad he won't listen to informed opinions and instead provides a unit that could be a great, not just a good replacement . |
12-08-2007, 01:02 PM
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: French Riviera
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Someone on the french forum talk about this system, seems to be seducting too... curves seems to be able to modified. but I don't speak any word of german...
Someone to translate and explain ?
www.histo-tec.de
Last edited by haazed; 12-10-2007 at 01:00 AM.
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12-09-2007, 03:21 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: germany
Posts: 3
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hi hazeed,
i got this electronic ignition made by histo:tec in my car....and i am
really satisfied with this system!
short explanation:
its possible to programm an individual ignition curve adapted to your engine,
you can set a rev limiter and its also possible to install a shiftlight...
the ignition is also prepared for twin-plug ignition as used on gta or twinspark
engines....
if you need further informations pm me or e-mail at histo:tec....
those guys are usually really helpful! 
i think its really low priced in comparison to other similar ignitions!!
best regards |
12-09-2007, 10:46 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Rødekro, Denmark, northern part of Europe
Posts: 121
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I have read about this system on ww.histo-tec.de, and it has some good features such as rev-limiter and gear change light, but:
- You´ll ned a distributor (105 €), a main unit (280 €), cable (23,5 €) and a coil (68 €). Compared to 123 it is about 65% more expensive !
- I dont see any of the nice things such as spark balancing, vacuum control at gear change and starting etc.
- What about vacuum regulation, does the main unit have a connector for that, and can this be taken into account while programming the advance curve.
Top product would be a 123 ignition system that could be programmed via a PC.
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[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Best Regards
Morten Svendsen, Rødekro, Denmark
Alfa Romeo 1300 GT Junior 1966[/FONT]
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