Electronic ignition for 105 Giulia Duetto GTV

[Giulia Bianca]

I received it today, will install it this week
I have payed €260 for the version without the vacuum, with vacuum would cost €290 both VAt included

[alfaparticle]

I bought the one without vacuum advance. I have owned several Spiders and GTV's and none of them had vacuum advance. I think that it is not needed.

I am going to adjust my Webers to see if I can run with a leaner idle circuit. Then I will install a new 12.3 mm intake cam. Then I will experiment with advance curves and timing.

Ed

[daveydog]

I think any distributor/coil combination that has 1-optical or magnetic triggering
2- the advance curves built in electroncially and not by using centrifical weights
is going to be the cat's ***!... The only upgrade I can think of is maybe downloading an advance curve from the internet for a special application such as high compression and/or "big" cams, or hot driving weather when it's possible to get just about any motor to ping with the quality of unleaded fuels we're required to use.
This unit , the 123, seem to be a good upgrade for those of us who still have a points ignition and were wanting the convenience of a breakerless ignition. Now you can get precise and programmed spark advance as well!
Hopefully some of the guys on this board who have actually used one will chime in with their impressions...?

[Bertonemorten]

Top or sideway connection ? I dont understand the top-option, so the sideway would be the natural choise, see also http://www.123ignition.se/pdf/123ALFA4.pdf (In english ) Note the expanding no. of programmes, so be sure to get the latest version (or a lower price for an older version).

[rafael]

Theoretically it should be possible to use the 8 cilinder distributor with a twin spark engine. This as the alternative of hacking a distributor with a nissan cap. Any experience on this?

[Max Banks]

Without doubt the technology in this 123ignition dizzie is good - the spark balancing and multiple position curves are great ideas. We looked strongly into stocking the unit and I got quite excited at first but decided against it in the end once I had seen the list of curves; my issue with it, is the execution of the unit. From memory, I seem to remember it uses about 13 or so of the available positions for different curves in Alfa application, but all except 2 of them are standard curves which is crazy! I understand 1 Marelli curve and maybe 2 couple of Bosch ones, but why so many standard curves?! The options they give make no sense either, I seem to remember they give a different curve for a 1600 Duetto to a Sprint GT or something .... then they give the same advance curve for a GTC and a GTA - well they certainly aren't the same curve, and someone obviously forgot to tell them a GTA has 8 plugs!!!! We have found no requirement for different curves in fast road application for 1600 or 2000 engines.

We all know that the whole problem with running these cars on modern fuels is that the Bosch advance curves are not suitable (in reality the Marelli curve isn't too bad for fast road use). With the original Bosch curve, to get the correct maximum advance to stop pinking, you end up ruining the low running of the engine, as a result the curve needs remapping. You can do this properly with 1 fast road curve and 2 or 3 race curve options. As a result you would have to say that at least 8 positions on the 123ignition are completely wasted! In reality 6 or so positions done properly would be plenty and give a much better range of options to the end user for either road or race application. It seems crazy that there are only 2 modified curves, it really doesn't give much option for testing especially given the wide range of tuning people run their car at, especially when they have the ability to give you 16 good ones! So why didn't they do this?... I guess because they don't know the cars well enough and never consulted anyone who 'knew their onions'! Its really frustrating as its nearly a great solution but the advance curves they give you undermine all the clever technology it has in my opinion....

[haazed]

You've just raised good questions, First I think they put 13 positions choice on 15 possible to fill the possibilities of their "standard" technologie. (not very concluding...)

Worse point, and you're right on this : Why they put Giulia GT, GTA and GTC on the same advance curve ??? because, and you've just answer, they surely don't know that a GTA have 8 plugs... And just this, can let me think they don't know alfa as much to program the right curves... but there is an other assumption, and I wish it's the explanation : they don't know Alfa, ok why not, but as they are ignition professional, may be they have the different originals BOSCH curves and they just translate them to electronic with small modifications...

As I can see on your website ; Alfaholics have this product in stock and I really appreciate the objective way you are talking about, but did you try this ? if it's the case, what do you think about it ? because even you completely right on the unit execution, may be, the curves are effective and so, it' a good alternative to mecanical ignition...

Cheers

[alfaparticle]

Max:
I agree with you that they missed an opportunity to provide a more useful product. There are two switch postions that are unused. There is a curve listed for Marelli S103 and S166, but I believe that these are two different curves. It appears to be the S103. They could have used a spare switch position for S166. Also, the "006 tuning" curve is not well defined in the instruction sheet. It may be a single segment curve with no "knee". If there is one, they do not say where it is. I seems to me that 4 of the curves may be worth trying on a 2 liter engine.

The requirement to use ignition coils with a primary resistance of at least 1 ohm rules out most coils for electronic ignitions that presumably make a stronger spark. My Marelliplex makes sparks that look and sound stronger than the ones from the 123ignition and a standard Marelli coil with a 1.5 ohm primary.

Having said that, it appears to be well made and it is working fine on my car. It is so much easier to set the idle now compared with the Shankle Marelliplex.

Ed Prytherch

[Max Banks]

We didn't try it, because I could see little point, I think the only information they give you for each curve is the static advance and the maximum advance, you get no knowledge of the shape of the curve because they said they wanted to protect their data!!! As a result you never know if there is a performance hole in 1 particular curve because its not the right shape and thus select the next one that you prefer. Even if you ran one up on a rolling road and the modified tuning advance didn't match your engine characteristics, you could do nothing about it because they only have 2 modified (non-original) curves and no direct details of those curves. (We already know that standard curves are no use anyway with modern fuels). If they had 4 or 5 modifed tuning curves and a graph plotting each on top of eachother you would be able to make meaningful tuning of the unit vs your engine and the multi position switch would then be very useful. The other silly design fault is that the switch is hidden in the bottom of the unit so looks like the unit has to be removed to change the curve, which is much more effort than it need be if they put it in the side for example!

This is why, in my opinion, a proper re-mapped Bosch JF4 unit is still the best option. You might not have spark balancing, but you know exactly what curve you are getting (the most important feature of a distributor!) and changing that is a simple job any good rolling road technician can make and not much harder than taking the 123ignition unit out to change the position of the switch anyway!

I think you made a valid point, they don't know the best way to make Alfa curves because they are only distributor boffins, thats understandable, but why try to make a product without proper market research and consulting experts on it?!?! They not only affected their own sales, but also snatched failure from the jaws of victory by failing to produce a product that could have been useful to EVERY 105 series Alfa owner for sensible money.... what a mess!!

[rafael]

Max,

Did you contact them and offer your advice? Perhaps they are receptive, and are willing to improve the product...

[73gtv]

Crane Cams makes a similar unit for American V8 engines and it is adjustable from the side so you don't have to pull the distributor to select another curve. Their latest unit has 27 available curves.

[180OUT]

Quote:

We all know that the whole problem with running these cars on modern fuels is that the Bosch advance curves are not suitable (in reality the Marelli curve isn't too bad for fast road use).

[Spinrique]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfajay Spinrique: A distributor performs 3 functions: (...) .

[haazed]

Quote:

Originally Posted by rafael Max, Did you contact them and offer your advice? Perhaps they are receptive, and are willing to improve the product...

[Max Banks]

I did at the begining, they weren't very interested - I knew the score immediately - they believed their product was perfect!! They then tied themselves up with another UK Alfa parts supplier without telling me and were then not interested in another Alfa Romeo supplier in the UK!!! Problem is that they have kind of chosen the wrong company to be dealing with with regard to improving the product to actually make it useful for 105 owners !!!

I suspect we'll come up with an other solution in due course.