Bobcor History and B & C sedan

[kengta]

The following Bobcor History was posted by Oldalfaguy in another thread and I thought it a good idea to follow up in new thread rather than change topics of the other thread:

Ciao
Ken Geiger
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Bobcor History

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It may not matter or be significant to the possible sale of your car, but there are problems about the Bobcor part. First, "his color" was yellow. The GTA's he raced in Trans Am and the Montreal he attempted to race were all painted a deep yellow. I'm not saying he did not paint your car red. But he did paint his race cars yellow back then. Perhaps he bought the car for resale, not to race.

Also, it does not ring true that he found the car uncompetitive. Back in the early '70's, the GTA Jr ran in C sedan and was at the top of its class. I think just about anyone who ran a GTA Jr in SCCA Nationals with intent to qualify for the Runoffs did in fact qualify. Frank Carney (the Pizza Hut guy), Dick Davenport, Rasey Feezell, Bruce Perry, Madison Smith to name a few. There were others whose names slip my mind. Besides, I don't think Bob Cozza ever ran in C Sedan anyway. More on that below.

Here's a bit of GTA/GTA Jr history in the US: the 1600 GTA was initially approved for racing in SCCA in B Sedan. But after a couple of years, the SCCA outlawed it because Alfa Romeo could never substantiate that it had built enough of them to be considered a full production model. SCCA approved it for B Sedan subject to verification that at least 1,000 units had been built. Naturally, that verification never came because Alfa never built that many GTA's. On the other hand, Alfa DID produce enough 1300 GTA Jr's for it to be legal in C Sedan. In fact, some people who had raced GTA's until they were outlawed converted the engine from 1600cc to 1300c so they could continue to race, but in C Sedan instead of B Sedan. Bruce Perry did that.

The irony of all of that is that, for SCCA Club Racing, the GTA WAS imported and sold in the US by Alfa Romeo, but the GTA Jr was not. Alfa Romeo did bring in some Autodelta-prepared GTA Jr race cars, but never sold street versions in the US. So the model that WAS sold here was not legal to race, and the model that was legal to race was never sold here. Go figure.

Now here is a twist. Although SCCA pulled the GTA from B Sedan amatuer racing, it continued to allow it to race in the Trans Am series. Bob Cozza focused on the Trans Am series, not amatuer B Sedan (or C Sedan for that matter). He usually ran two GTA's in Trans Am. So if he had purchased a 1300GTA Jr back in the early '70's, he would have probably done so with the thought of switching the engine out to a 1600 to run in the Trans Am. Or like I said earlier, maybe he bought it to re-sell it. Also, I can assure you that he didn't buy an Alfa race car not knowing whether or not it was competitive in a given class. The key to all of this is the Competition Logbook issued by SCCA for the car. Not only will it show if and when Bob Cozza raced it, but it will be a critical piece of documentation of the racing history of the car.

Bill, I'm not saying you made up the Bobcor details. What I am saying is that somebody along the line probably took a stab at filling in the blanks themselves and guessed wrong on the details. Your car will no doubt be given more scrutiny than you ever thought possible. You're going to run into people who will want to know about the threads on every nut and bolt on the car. But, as you know, that comes with the "collector car" territory. By the end of the process, all of the correct details will be figured out. My thoughts and recollections may help straighten out some of them.

OldAlfaGuy

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Last edited by OldAlfaGuy : Today at 10:24 AM.

[Gordon Raymond]

Excellent analysis!
Gordon Raymond

[kengta]

Hi Old alfa Guy and Others,

Can you clarify and add any information as to which years the SCCA banned the GTA from B-Sedan and then reinstated it.

Other C-sedan Racers that come to mind: D Ammen, Jeff?? Cline, Harry T.

I think Bruce Perry owned more than 1 GTA/GTAj at some time. I also think that the GTAj he sold to New Zealand was a GTAj chassis c/w GTAj motor.
Can you say more about his GTA convert to C-Sedan.

When my GTA was sold from Bobcor, Buffalo, NY, in 1975 it was yellow in GTAj livery, c/w plastic fenders and GTAj motor. It was then raced very briefly here in Canada as a C-Sedan. I have not found any information about any SCCA C-sedan racing history for this chassis. Do you have any information.

At the same time (1975) as my GTA was was at Bobcor it is reported that another RHD GTA/ GTAj was also there and for sale and in similar livery. Any info on this one.

Ciao

Ken

[italcarguy]

Ken,

Is anything known about the second possible rhd Bobcor GTA? Is it the ex-Murphy car?

[kengta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by italcarguy Ken, Is anything known about the second possible rhd Bobcor GTA? Is it the ex-Murphy car?

[kengta]

HI Oldalfaguy and Others,

I should know all this but I am not clear, so any info would be appreciated.

As far as I know BOBCOR only painted their cars or sponsored cars yellow for the 1972 Trans/Am. I do not know if they actually owned the cars and hired drivers or if the drivers owned the cars and BOBCOR sponsored or a bit of both. I think they only sponsored.

MY RHD GTA 752507 race number #25 (but maybe not always 25 if there was a number conflict) was bought by Bert Everett ( did Bert buy more than one gta from Andry?? ANYONE KNOW?) fom Gaston Andrey in time for the MID-OHIO T/A in 1970 and Bert then raced it through to the end of T/A season 1972. Bert did have some other rides during that period.

It was red and white on fender tops for 1970 and 1971 to my knowledge. Did it get yellow part way through 1971?? any one know??

#25 is then yellow for 1972 as are one or 2 other GTAs sponsored/entered by BOBCOR.

#25 is then yellow with GTAj plastic fenders, complete with GTAj motor, for c_sedan??. In 1975 when it was sold to J Demaria of Toronto. It is now orangey-red, C/W plastic fenderes , no engine. I am looking for C-Sedan history in USA and Canada.

BOBCOR has always been considered a big T/A Alfa Race sponsor and perhaps they were as they were selling the A/D parts and all but did their sponsorship show up on the cars before 1972?? Anyone know? Or did the yellow GTAs just stick in peoples minds based one year racing , 1972, and a big poster (showing #25 and #52) that BOBCOR marketed for years after.

In 1973? BOBCOR then preped a Montreal painrted it yellow and entered it in the re-constituted T/A.

Ciao

Ken

PS: I have a letter from Bob Cozza from the mid 1980s that interestingly enough (but maybe not surprisingly) would not help with clarification or put another way might add to the confusion.

But racers were born to race and historians they are not, usually. And they seldom tracked serial numbers as we must today in order to keep the facts straight.

[Alleggerita]

Quote:

Originally Posted by kengta Yes that is my understanding. I also understand it is a RHD, possible conversion from LHD, (wish someone who has seen the chassis would go on record and clear this up) an no S/N or missing s/n, (again clarifiation needed). Ciao Ken

[OldAlfaGuy]

Ken,

1) I am certain that once SCCA dropped the 1600 GTA from B Sedan, it was never reinstated. However, it was always allowed in Trans Am. I can't remember when it was outlawed. At Paul Spruell's website, there is a copy of the January, 1970 issue of The Alfa Owner providing details of the 1969 Runoffs. (That is the year Paul won the President's Cup for his win in G Production.) That year (1969), GTA Jr's took 1st, 3rd and 4th in C Sedan (A Mini took 2nd). There were no Alfa's listed in B Sedan results, so that tells me that the 1600 GTA was dropped from B Sedan by 1969. The thing to do is locate the results of the 1968 Runoffs and see if GTA's were listed in the results. That will tell you which year it was dropped from B Sedan ('68 or '69).

2) As far as Bruce Perry's GTA Jr's are concerned, I can provide details on them. I owned one of them. He bought a 1600 GTA street car off the showroom floor at Algar Enterprises in Pennsylvania. First, he did Solo 2 (autocross), then Solo 1, then Regional racing and then finally National racing in the car. As he progressed up the competition ladder, he added the factory competition pieces one part at a time, until it finally had pretty much all of the goodies (sliding block, etc). After rolling the car (either Nelson Ledges or Watkins Glen, I forget), he bought one of the two Amman/Rutherford GTA Jr's and listed his old car for sale in The Alfa Owner. I bought it from him. This was in '77 or '78, I'd say.

While I was at his shop in Bradford, PA to pick up the car, he showed me his new toy, the Amman/Rutherford car. It was trick. They had had Lee Dykstra go through the suspension, and it was all different stuff from the Autodelta setup. I remember Bruce telling me that his new car handled totally different from (and better than) his old car.

Bruce is/was a neat guy. After retiring from teaching, he and his wife would go to vintage races selling old car magazines. I would always see him each year at the Fall Festival at Limerock. I also remember it took him forever to sell that Amman/Rutherford car. I don't think he wanted too much. The market just wasn't hot like it is these days. And he just didn't want to give it away.

3) Regarding your car, right now I can't be much help. There was a guy back in the '70's who did the neatest posters of race cars (Paul Oxman). He did one of the Bobcor cars together (at Road Atlanta, I seem to remember, coming out of turn 5). They were both yellow, but neither car had the plastic GTAm-type fenders. I left that poster on the wall in the garage of a house I sold and moved out of. Man, I wish I had that poster today. When I get time, I will look through old race programs and pictures I took at races to see if I can find your car. Didn't John Murphy have a yellow wide-fendered GTA/GTA Jr? I seem to remember him racing the car at the Walter Middy Challenge at Road Atlanta in the late '80's.

Man, trying to recall all of this stuff from 20-30 years ago is really taxing my brain!

OldAlfaGuy

[dretceterini]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldAlfaGuy Ken, 1) I am certain that once SCCA dropped the 1600 GTA from B Sedan, it was never reinstated. However, it was always allowed in Trans Am. I can't remember when it was outlawed. At Paul Spruell's website, there is a copy of the January, 1970 issue of The Alfa Owner providing details of the 1969 Runoffs. (That is the year Paul won the President's Cup for his win in G Production.) That year (1969), GTA Jr's took 1st, 3rd and 4th in C Sedan (A Mini took 2nd). There were no Alfa's listed in B Sedan results, so that tells me that the 1600 GTA was dropped from B Sedan by 1969. The thing to do is locate the results of the 1968 Runoffs and see if GTA's were listed in the results. That will tell you which year it was dropped from B Sedan ('68 or '69). 2) As far as Bruce Perry's GTA Jr's are concerned, I can provide details on them. I owned one of them. He bought a 1600 GTA street car off the showroom floor at Algar Enterprises in Pennsylvania. First, he did Solo 2 (autocross), then Solo 1, then Regional racing and then finally National racing in the car. As he progressed up the competition ladder, he added the factory competition pieces one part at a time, until it finally had pretty much all of the goodies (sliding block, etc). After rolling the car (either Nelson Ledges or Watkins Glen, I forget), he bought one of the two Amman/Rutherford GTA Jr's and listed his old car for sale in The Alfa Owner. I bought it from him. This was in '77 or '78, I'd say. While I was at his shop in Bradford, PA to pick up the car, he showed me his new toy, the Amman/Rutherford car. It was trick. They had had Lee Dykstra go through the suspension, and it was all different stuff from the Autodelta setup. I remember Bruce telling me that his new car handled totally different from (and better than) his old car. Bruce is/was a neat guy. After retiring from teaching, he and his wife would go to vintage races selling old car magazines. I would always see him each year at the Fall Festival at Limerock. I also remember it took him forever to sell that Amman/Rutherford car. I don't think he wanted too much. The market just wasn't hot like it is these days. And he just didn't want to give it away. 3) Regarding your car, right now I can't be much help. There was a guy back in the '70's who did the neatest posters of race cars (Paul Oxman). He did one of the Bobcor cars together (at Road Atlanta, I seem to remember, coming out of turn 5). They were both yellow, but neither car had the plastic GTAm-type fenders. I left that poster on the wall in the garage of a house I sold and moved out of. Man, I wish I had that poster today. When I get time, I will look through old race programs and pictures I took at races to see if I can find your car. Didn't John Murphy have a yellow wide-fendered GTA/GTA Jr? I seem to remember him racing the car at the Walter Middy Challenge at Road Atlanta in the late '80's. Man, trying to recall all of this stuff from 20-30 years ago is really taxing my brain! OldAlfaGuy

[italcarguy]

My brother and I have B Sedan results for our GTA back in 1969. I think there are some for 1970 too, but I can't remember off the top of my head. So for sure 1600 GTA's weren't banned in SCCA in 1969.

[kengta]

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldAlfaGuy Ken, 1) I am certain that once SCCA dropped the 1600 GTA from B Sedan, it was never reinstated. However, it was always allowed in Trans Am. I can't remember when it was outlawed. At Paul Spruell's website, there is a copy of the January, 1970 issue of The Alfa Owner providing details of the 1969 Runoffs. (That is the year Paul won the President's Cup for his win in G Production.) That year (1969), GTA Jr's took 1st, 3rd and 4th in C Sedan (A Mini took 2nd). There were no Alfa's listed in B Sedan results, so that tells me that the 1600 GTA was dropped from B Sedan by 1969. The thing to do is locate the results of the 1968 Runoffs and see if GTA's were listed in the results. That will tell you which year it was dropped from B Sedan ('68 or '69). 2) As far as Bruce Perry's GTA Jr's are concerned, I can provide details on them. I owned one of them. He bought a 1600 GTA street car off the showroom floor at Algar Enterprises in Pennsylvania. First, he did Solo 2 (autocross), then Solo 1, then Regional racing and then finally National racing in the car. As he progressed up the competition ladder, he added the factory competition pieces one part at a time, until it finally had pretty much all of the goodies (sliding block, etc). After rolling the car (either Nelson Ledges or Watkins Glen, I forget), he bought one of the two Amman/Rutherford GTA Jr's and listed his old car for sale in The Alfa Owner. I bought it from him. This was in '77 or '78, I'd say. While I was at his shop in Bradford, PA to pick up the car, he showed me his new toy, the Amman/Rutherford car. It was trick. They had had Lee Dykstra go through the suspension, and it was all different stuff from the Autodelta setup. I remember Bruce telling me that his new car handled totally different from (and better than) his old car. Bruce is/was a neat guy. After retiring from teaching, he and his wife would go to vintage races selling old car magazines. I would always see him each year at the Fall Festival at Limerock. I also remember it took him forever to sell that Amman/Rutherford car. I don't think he wanted too much. The market just wasn't hot like it is these days. And he just didn't want to give it away. 3) Regarding your car, right now I can't be much help. There was a guy back in the '70's who did the neatest posters of race cars (Paul Oxman). He did one of the Bobcor cars together (at Road Atlanta, I seem to remember, coming out of turn 5). They were both yellow, but neither car had the plastic GTAm-type fenders. I left that poster on the wall in the garage of a house I sold and moved out of. Man, I wish I had that poster today. When I get time, I will look through old race programs and pictures I took at races to see if I can find your car. Didn't John Murphy have a yellow wide-fendered GTA/GTA Jr? I seem to remember him racing the car at the Walter Middy Challenge at Road Atlanta in the late '80's. Man, trying to recall all of this stuff from 20-30 years ago is really taxing my brain! OldAlfaGuy

[italcarguy]

Here are some pictures of ex-Murphy GTA being spoken about. I shot them in October 2006 at the Coronado Festival of Speed. When I first saw the car in 1999, it was in "as raced" condition and painted yellow.

Picture 1: Where the pedal box was located when the car was LHD

Pictures 2 and 3: Interior shots

Pictures 4 and 5: Trans Am "brass tag" reading 72BS15

[italcarguy]

More of the ex-Murphy GTA at the 2006 Coronado Festival of Speed.

Pictures 1 and 2: No chassis number on firewall

Picture 3: Left side firewall

Picture 4: Right side firewall

[italcarguy]

Here is a picture I have of the Bobcor #25 rhd GTA leading the ex-Thrieriot #33 GTA (752 609) at Laguna Seca in 1972.

[rap]

Pimped-out two-tone interior with junk-*** autometer guages.......what a shame that this car should be subjected to such indignities.