Alfaholics GTA Replica - Production

[seani]

Here goes, hope this works

[GTVdrifter]

The Alfaholics GTA Replica is absolutely awesome! The photo shoot is fantastic and now provides me with my favorite desktop background picture yet. Way to go Max!

[Oyibo]

My ha'penny's worth:

With regard to restoring to original:

• I would love to with step-noses. But over the past two years I have found no RHD dashboards or front seats for a '66 GT Sprint Veloce, let alone more arcane items such as the mythical ashtray. It is my opinion that unless one has exceptional luck, money, time, or all three, restoration to original from a ratty and incomplete shell is a Sisyphean task.

• Given that it is so difficult, if not impossible, to restore to original a car lacking most of the parts that distinguish it as such, a restoration sympathetic to the period seems to me to be a sensible way ahead. It gives the owner pleasure, and rarely converts the car to such a degree that it cannot be reverted to original spec.

I enjoy the threads written by those whose work is exemplary (Akitaman springs to mind), and I have always gone to retailers (for Alfas and other cars) that offer top quality design and manufacturing. I am sure that the majority of people on this site feel the same. In the same vein, I would never chop up a good original car to make it into a GTA replica - if I had the money for the conversion (I assume it's not going to be that cheap) I would buy a hulk from a scrapyard - the price in most countries would not be a serious dent on the finances when factored in with the conversion. Alfaholics appear to offer exemplary work and top quality components for conversions of cars that can just be hulks. I am all for that.

Having said all that, I really would like to see something come from Alfaholics:

Max, et al,

Notwithstanding the obvious costs of tooling and shipping etc, have you considered manufacturing bodyshells as is done for Spitfires, Sprites, and many other classic cars? :-0

[Andrew Stevens]

Spare a thought for all those 'one loved' stepnose cars that are fast becoming a rare sight in standard form - at least here in the UK. I can understand the economics of a 'GTA Replica' but it's a shame that there seems to be so few original cars about to remind us all of what they were like back in their day. After all, Alfa struggled to sell GTAs back in period, so it's a bit ironic that so many people want them now!

I find it a shame now that any "GTA" that I see nowadays I immediately have to check the rain gutters to see if it's a real car - then I pay attention to it. It's like Ferrari 250SWBs (& Cobras) - you assume that it's not real until you do some checks, which is a pity.

I do hope that some people do keep or restore their Stepnose cars to original standard for comparison. They are such a sweet thing to drive in original condition. You can argue about costs of doing so, but in reality any 105 restoration goes beyond economic sense - it's a labour of love and that's how it should be!

[Berlinista]

Come on, bugger all. The point is money. Really. We currently have 13 Bertone Coupes in the showroom. All original. Unmolested, unmodified. Unwelded. Priced from €15K to euro 40K for the very best , just sold, example.
So if they are SO rare, if they are SO special, how come you guys don't show up and PURCHASE the things? We can sell all the rare Ferrari's we can get our hands on. It's the Ferrari collectors now buying our very best Sprint GTs and first series 1750 because they realise the cars are fun, honest, cool to drive and worth every penny. Yet everyone seems to think they are too expensive! Like I said.. Money!
I don't see any of you people out here, not on the mailbox, nothing. Yet we are out there, we can be found, we have the totally perfect cars.
We do what Max does too, albeit with an Historical Rally point of view. Sometimes using parts from Max. (we make our own stabilisers, springs, etc) If that is what the customer wants, fine.
we have a large stock of 'project'cars in the back , about 20 or so, from Giulia TI to Sprint Veloce. I am currently disposing of several to make some space. marketed them locally. No takers. How about a '73 GT1300 junior, body is perfect, only welded in rear arches and wheel/door panels. Totally straight, silver (AR728) .
To be sold without engine / trans and interior for 6K euro. Paint is NEW, not one mile driven. Yet no takers even for 6K. Some come off your high horses, there are plenty of cars, no sweat. We have over 50 105 series in the shop at Maranello . Max, if you need project cars, LHD, just drop over. I've a 1750 first series, a 2nd series, the silver 1300, several 1600 in various states. Several Scalino's of all types. All project cars. Also as many Giulia's as you might possibly want. (TI Super replica anyone..)
Most cars do not require any welding.
what WE do not require are people who REALLY want one and then are willing to pay at the most 3K for a freshly painted, totally rust free rolling body. Get real!
I totally agree with what Max and the Alfaholics team is doing. Hell, I PERSONALLY am doing the same thing. There are as many cars out there as you could possibly want, not just at our shop. If I start travelling ONLY the dutch internet I am sure to find 200 cars any day. No big deal.
what most, not all of you people, are actually complaining about is not the AVAILABILITY of cars, but but in how far those people CAN AFFORD the available cars. It so happens we like to build them PERIOD modified and we go a loooooooong way for that. like finding Borrani Bimetal wheels, period race seats, mirrors, engine mods etc, so that it would be as if a late '60s man-about-town would buy a GT1300, and then go shopping all over Italy for goodies. Max' guys are more of a modern upgrade version. Like the pictured car: I HATE those oil catch tanks. I use a period military aluminium water bottle/ canister for example. or fabricate. So much cooler.
No way, the cars are out there. our customers know that. Some have several, one original, one modified. Whatever. Just like Daytona's. There are plenty out there. I know of several, we had three, (two original Spiders) in the shop at one time last month. Two of them for sale, the third also if enough money paid. Want a Daytona?
Give us a call. Can't afford one, like me? Buy something else. (like me...)
Want a TI Super? One was sold last month, in a jiffy. Did one of you guys offer cash? Nope. it went to a collector who already has 7....
As a last remark: Andrew Stevens: You CAN restore a 105 economically. We do. Totally. We start with a 100% body. We then do EVERYTHING. The only point is that it then costs 40000 Euro. But we DO sell those cars. Because there really are people who realise that it really only pays to go that way.
One really REALLY last remark: Max: Go for it boy. It's a business too, besides just a passion for the cars. You and me both, we have to eat off it...And nothing better than to eat from doing what one loves to do.

Rik

[Berlinista]

I want to say something else, having reread my previous post. Maybe a bit heated. Yes, I am aware not everyone has sufficient dosh to buy a 25 to 40 K Euro Bertone. I don't. I'm just a mechanic with a passion. So I have this Ferrari, my Scalino, my Berlina's, and by golly, my Harley. Yup! but it is BECAUSE it is my passion. That is what a passion is. A passion means making choices. If you are really passionate about something, you will go to some length to achieve what ever your passion is. I worked really REALLY hard for this, on a meager salary. But I have all that, because it IS my passion.
Basically: If you ARE passionate about a totally perfect Bertone, go out and achieve that aim. Plenty of cars to choose from. If yo are passionate about what Max is doing: Get one!!
And like it was with GTA's (real ones) in 25 years even a car Max has laid hands on CAN be restored to original. If a then owner is passionate enough.

[hagen111]

Ok then, I guess it is because we are Dutch..and can be blunt and upfront. But yes...there are so many cars out there...if you want an original unspoilt car...you can buy it, no worries!

And the good thing...it is much cheaper than buying a proper GTA replica

[Super1600]

Rik, mate you sure did get a little passionate in your 2 postings there But hey isnt it good to get such matters off your chest. I have to admit to feeling somewhat envious of what you guys have over there in Holland as it is pretty amazing to have such a choice.

Out here in Aus and worse still here in Tassie, I can tell you while there are still GTVs out there of any configuaration, they are extremely rare on the ground. My car, like most I think is laid up, given that it is winter now but more importantly since I suspect for many owners now they are highly valued and hence daily use is not really an ideal prospect. Having said that I did use mine daily for the first 11 years ownership but rust and lack of a garage has taken its toll on the body such that it needs to be restored. My Super is under restoration, and the end cost will be substantive, given how bad it was when bought.

In terms of Giulia Supers or Berlinas they are even more scarce out here. Basically I know of 3 2L Berlinas left on the road and 1 1750 has only just re-appeared. That is the sum total. My brother has 3 2L Berlinas but at best one could be made out of the 3 of them. He also has a 1300Ti, 1600 Ti (both need restoration) and a wreck of a 1750 GTV. Within our club we have probably at most 6 GTVs, 1 Berlina, and 2 Giulia Supers on the road.

In respect of cars available for sale Australia wide. i did a quick search and the following is the sum total:

1 1300 GTj for $3500 (ebay)
3 1600s (2 1600 juniors) 1, a 65 stepnose GT. $6888-$50K for the stepnose.
7 1750s $9900-29,950, plus a tired 1750 Berlina for $2990.
5 2L $9900 - 20,000, inc a 2L Berlina restored for $9900 neg. supposedly had $16k spent on it.

2 Giulia Supers, $6950 to 29980 (the expensive one being a '72 1300 with low milage.

I am pretty sure that Alfa_Veloce has 2 2L Berlinas in Sydney for sale.

Thats it 20 in total, unless there are others for sale locally, or via Alfa club sites, to which I have no knowledge.

Certainly on ebay over any year there will be a range of all the above for sale, in differing condition and price.

From memory I recall Barry Edmunds reporting that a total of about 400 Giulias were imported into Aus during the total production timeframe. I would therefore suggest at most somewhere between 50-150 are likely to be left on the road, unless Barry has more on his register.

I have no knowledge of how many Berlinas were imported but again I would hazard a guess that it is likely there is likely to remain well less than a 100 Aus wide, could even be less than 50 now.

GTVs most definitely are more common, as you would expect and will see when ever you go to a Alfa club display day. Most of these though are garage queens.

I am not disputing your comments about what you have observed or are aware of, and for the most I agree with your views. 105s are delightful but are cars and hence were designed to be used and enjoyed. They are automotive art, and hence collectable and should be cared for but at the end of the day they are not Bugattis, or anywhere as rare as say an early 60's Ferrari or Maserati etc.

My feelings on modifications, improvements have previously been expressed. I like what the Alfaholics team can do. However, personally for me, my income will not allow a full rebuild by them. If i can obtain over time some of the go better parts for my GTV and Giulia Super from them or who ever else,well great, I will, but it doesnt mean the character of my cars will be destroyed.

I think the one thing I personally could never do would be take a time piece GTV or Giulia etc and hot it up. I like the fact that a few special examples of what was originally made will exist into the future.

My attitude to my collectibles, whether my cars, antiques or colonial houses (which I am also restoring at significant expense and hard work) is that I am but a custodian, such that when I am gone others will enjoy them too. Dave

[alfavirusnz]

Dave we at the other end of the earth see Alfas because of their rarity and their high original cost as more special than they do over there.

[Super1600]

Therein lays the problem possibly Richard re 105s today, for indeed I agree with what you say. I recall when was only a kid when 105s were new, just how expensive they were. From memory, a new 1750GTV was essentially the same cost as an E-Type Jag.

I similarly recall when the Alfetta GTV was new, as friend of my brothers (who was very wealthy) bought a new one back in the late 1970's and was extremely envious of him. I was happy to have had the mere opportunity of him taking me for a drive in it on more than one occasion.

At that time, as a broke Uni student I was driving around in my beat up '69 AC 124 Sport and feeling pretty lucky I had been able to have that car. It took me until the early 90s before I could afford an Alfetta GT and feeling pretty special that I had finally managed to get one of these, and not until '97 before i could afford my 1750 GTV. Dave

[alfavirusnz]

In the `60`s reading as a boy car magazines like Australian Sports Car World, Modern Motor, Wheels where they loved Alfa Romeo and being Italian cars with a huge successful motorsport history and a romantic exotic name which few in New Zealand could pronounce properly Alfa Romeo were really in a different world. Those that owned them were wealthy enthusiasts (they were very very dear in NZ) who had often brought them back with them from a trip overseas in the days when overseas travel itself was pretty exotic and expensive in a world before the internet etc (Remember the rest of you we are 12000miles away from Europe at the bottom of the world with a strong British, not European influence). The fact that the dealers brought in mainly coupes because they could charge more for them and buyers saw the coupes as more sporty helped that sporty glamous perception of the brand in Australasia.
Alfas, Maseratis, Lancias,Ferrari`s, Porsches were all seen as expensive exotica and were seen and valued quite a bit differently to Europe & North America. Only us older Kiwis and Aussies would appreciate this perception and maybe answers why we are a little more precious about them.

[blacklotus99]

Really interesting thread!

Im amazed that no one has already done this a la Alfaholics treatment, perhaps the demand wasnt there before, I dont know. There have been people restoring/updating Jags, Astons, Healeys and lots of others to customers specifications for years.

The difference here I think is that, just as the dutch guys have said, these 105s are cheap cars. They were sold in what in collectors terms are "large quantities" in almost all variations and there always seems to be plenty for sale, yes, even here in Oz IMO. Restoration cost vs potential sale cost is always an interesting one and unlike some Jags or Astons etc, with values the way they are now you would never recoup the resto cost once you sell it. Hence the reason there are so many very ordinary 105s around. The market isnt there to warrant restoring them. Not many people are prepared to tear up lots of money properly restoring a car, lets call it 50K, when you are likely to get a little over half of that back. Only the truly dedicated would embark on that.

The GTA replica concept I think is just another example in the long line of cars that have become unaffordable to most. The July 09 issue of Thoroughbred and Classic Cars has an article on exactly this phenomenon, and the 105 is one of the cars looked at. With GTA prices only going one way (because of limited supply and historic motorsport), I dont see any major issue with the replica issue as long as people arent trying to "fake" a real car. That just causes problems for everyone including the experts. Look whats happened with the '73 911 Carrera RS, even the experts have some trouble identifying the really good fakes.

Someone was talking about modern performance cars compared to an original 105 and thats why people are updating to GTA type spec. Im not sure about that one. I drove a few original spec restored 1750s before I bought my 105 and they were, to be honest, very ordinary to drive, compared to other cars of the era (admittedly more expensive cars). They roll around, marginal traction and pretty slow. Great car if you like going sideways at walking speed. Compare that with a properly sorted 2L with 150hp+ and its a completely different car to drive. Now you have something thats fun to drive rather than being IMO, rather pedestrian.

I have gone down the middle path I suppose. I have the 105 with the 2L and all the goodies, sans bumpers etc, but I have all the original parts to take the car back to concours if either I, or a future owner wishes to do that. That option, I think is quite important. Choice is a good thing. My taste in whats fitted to the car is not necessarily someone elses and maybe thats just where the Alfaholics car misses. Mind you, taking a complete wreck and turning it into a replica GTA is work of genius.

[Mound Dawg]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oyibo Having said all that, I really would like to see something come from Alfaholics: Max, et al, Notwithstanding the obvious costs of tooling and shipping etc, have you considered manufacturing bodyshells as is done for Spitfires, Sprites, and many other classic cars? :-0

[1750GT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mound Dawg Answered your own question there haven't you? They'd cost so much that no-one would buy one!

[JoeCab]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1750GT ...and yet, it's amazing to me that they manage to make money on these for the very reasonable price they're asking. MG Midget Bodyshells - Being Assembled by British Motor Heritage