A very modified GTV - Page 5

**akitaman** · #61 (**permalink**) 02-11-2009, 09:20 PM

Okay so we made some good progress over the last few days.

The old spare tire tub is now out. BTW, if you need to change your tire tub, take the time to do it right. That tire tub is structural. It is very important in case of rear impact. So don't rivet one in. Welding is a must.

Now its time to focus on stiffening and reinforcement of the shell. Here, we are looking at the rear and base of the driver side C pillar. If you look carefully you can see the spot welds were pulling apart. This is not rare or uncommon. Over the years the body stress, body roll will do this. Well, welding these area's will help stiffen the C pillar.

And now welding those area's

And now the roof stiffening. Here we made a bead to weld in to the crossover.

Removing some weight before welding in.

And now the C pillar frame work.

Now that it is welded in you can see how the base was rolled as to tie in and over the C-pillar base.

**MeanRedSpider** · #62 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akitaman

That tire tub is structural. It is very important in case of rear impact.

Mikes4C1300 · #63 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 09:33 AM

While we're on the subject of structure and rear crumple zones, I've heard that the fully inflated full size spare tire is an integral part of a 105s rear end design. Is that true or just one of those urban legends? The deformation of the white car above makes me think the car functioned well without a spare and, if one was carried, it might have been too stiff.

Mike Holllinger
Atlanta

Alleggerita · #64 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 09:46 AM

FWIW, rivets can be structural grade, eg on monocoques and aircraft - just not your home depot quality. They are available from aircraft suppliers. And those type of rivets you ain't gonna pull with a hand riveter for too long ...

And Alfa did rivet in spare wheel tubs out of aluminum on GTA corsas. They did riveted aluminum floors too but went away from that because of lack of rigidity - but I would say it was the lack of rigidity of the aluminum compared to steel rather than the riveting.

PSk · #65 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 03:09 PM

Okay I'll say it ... I'm confused

... why are we strengthening the roof?. Isn't this car going to have a cage and be a racer?, thus the cage will be all the strength we need.

GTA's I believe never strengthened the roof, and yes like the previous post they would have replaced everything they could with aluminium because of course the win was all that mattered, and as we now know those cars of that period were hardly safe.

Best
Pete
ps: Surely this car is not going to be a street poseur ... ... I'll start whinging about wasting restorable chassis again . Atleast if it's going to be a racer there is a purpose.

**davbert** · #66 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 03:16 PM

+1 on pete's comments

check out some vintage pictures of old 105 crashes and be horrified.

cheers

db

GTV-GR · #67 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 06:18 PM

don't jump to conclusions that fast , these cars have had way too much thinking gone into their design, and even in today standards ,they are very safe. Check out this photo of legendary Greek 60's racing driver "Mauros" (Blackman)one wrong move and death came pretty fast. Now check out the cabin...

P.S. That car hit a stone wall at Rhodes island race ,anyone can guess the speed?

-------------------------------------------------..............
Ferrari...The guy used to work for us...let's not make him god.

**akitaman** · #68 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 06:44 PM

I would think by now Pete, you would know, I know better. This is a street car, no cage, tons of power, tons of torque. Tons of torque twist. Riveted panels are not as rigid as welded steel. See where I'm going with this. Anyway, when I have time I will get deeper into this. The car will go to track events, and then and only then a cage will be bolted in.

James1750 · #69 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 06:55 PM

wow work is moving quickly on this build..
and woah the car looks like swiss cheese right now....... you'll be able to bicept curl that soon it'll be so light!!! ok that's an exaggeration but you should be able to bench press it

PSk · #70 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by akitaman

I would think by now Pete, you would know, I know better.

**davbert** · #71 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTV-GR

even in today standards ,they are very safe. .

**Super1600** · #72 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 07:36 PM

I have no wish to denigrate any person's desires for a car, since whether or not it is the sort of thing I might do is irrelevant. If the owner has a particular path to choose, the bank account that can stand this, well thats his/her choice. If I say one thing, I feel certain that Daron and his team can build it, given what I have seen to date on the BB.

My only real concern is in the choice of a bolt in cage, and I only say this as a result of seeing the results of an altercation between a Giulia Super and a telegraph pole head on at 70 mph in Targa Tasmania some years ago. The car was basically in standard form, complete with original seats, sub standard harness, wood rim momo and a bolt in cage. How the driver and navigator lived was nothing short of amazing. The bolt in cage was completely ripped out of the floor, and essentially useless.

Having seen this kind of damage, frankly, and especially with a car as light and powerful as this one will be, if it were me (which obviously it is not) I would definitely be advising the owner that its not a wise choice, simply on the grounds of personal safety. I note that the car may be used for some track work. Given this, this only increases the merit of a fully welded in cage.

Again, having seen the results of a fully prepared late '90s Toyota Supra, which was entered for Targa '08, and was being given a shake down run in our club hill climb, and crashed on the sighting run, the fact that the car was fully equiped with all relevant safety gear, including a welded in cage was what saved the drivers life or at least from serious injury. Hell he wasnt even going all that fast, simply an incompetent driver.

As to Pete's issue re the building of a lightweight, and seriously fast 105 GTV road car, while I think I know where he is comming from (ie. poseurs) perhaps this is not the case with the owner of this car. I am always happy to give the benefit of doubt since I don't know the owner, his reasons or anything about his abilities. I also am aware that there are people taking 80's model Porsche 911s and turing back the clock on them to create early looking 911s. Personally I dont have a problem with this given the expense of say an early 911 RS. I simply hope the owner of this particular Alfa loves what he gets. Dave

**genericwood** · #73 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 08:08 PM

I'm all for each owner deciding what they want their car to be, and how they want to use it. And I'm sure this owner considers himself luck to have Daron to build the car to his tastes!

Unfortunately, I made a race GTV luck quite a bit like the GTAm pictured in the previous post. It was a hard enough hit that the engine ended up about 25 yards from the chassis when everything came to rest. That I walked away is a testimonial to the value of a good roll cage, a proper race seat and good, properly-mounted harnesses. The chassis made it back to my paddock spot before I did, and that scared the sh*t out of a bunch of my friends. I did not find it difficult to race again, but I have never again taken my street GTV out for a track day. The lack of proper safety equipment just makes it not worth the risk.

Unlike my street car, I am quite sure the car Daron is building will be safe for the occasional track day. And I would bet he has given considerable thought to the mounting points for the bolt-in cage!

Erik

PSk · #74 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 08:15 PM

I want to say that I have absolute faith in Daron's work. He would be my first choice for restoring a car of my own ... if I didn't want to do it. Infact I know he and his team would do a better job than me, but I quite like the challenge.

One thing is for sure this is going to be a rocket and Daron is doing his best with what he has been asked to do. To be honest I would not like that responsibility, in this case because it will be so modified.

That is one of the reasons why I have a very black and white attitude, ie: make bloody light and fast for race track, and pretty much standard and safe for road. There is no need to lighten one of these cars for the road ... that I know of.
Best
Pete

**Super1600** · #75 (**permalink**) 02-12-2009, 08:18 PM

Hi Erik

I couldn't agree more with what you say re Daron's work and the engineering that will go into this car.

I, however, simply have a complete aversion for bolt in cages whether for road, track or rallying, period. By their very nature, and while I will qualify I am not an engineer, I dont believe they can offer the inherent safety or strength that a welded in cage will. The other concern is that one sees far too many "street cars" on the road with bolted in cages and for some perhaps it urges them to go faster than they should, coupled with the misguided idea that they are fully protected, which of course they are not.

As I said, I have seen the results of both accidents with bolted in and welded in cages, to me the answer is blindingly obvious which is both preferable and safer. Dave