A very modified GTV

[akitaman]

You are very close as to what were are installing, but there will be more to it. I need to limit exactly what it is until its all here. Some of the product is very new to the market and will most likely not have been seen on the BB before. But as you have suggested. With the car in its current state, any and all suspension mods will be far easier to do.

[Alfajay]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MeanRedSpider ...about flaring - I can see that it will be as strong in the beam axis - is it as strong in buckling/transverse?

[MeanRedSpider]

I think the answer is not to rely too heavily on it for safety. In some ways I'm quite glad my race series limits weight reduction to 90% of original curb weight - the temptation to Swiss-cheese the car would be very high. I really can't go any further much further than I am at the moment. I have some opportunities still to be more selective about where the weight has gone from - lighter wheels for instance - without getting into too much trouble with the officials.

Richard

[akitaman]

Good morning Jay. Your point is very valid, as was Richard's. Keep in mind I will not, under any circumstances be willing to punch and flare any element of a car that is considered structural, unless we are adding reinforcements or true straight to it. I see crash cell compromising done all the time and the responses is always a very uncomfortable "well, were installing a cage". A cage is only as strong as the foundation it is welded to. As for the holes we've done to this point, the amount, spacing, size and locations are sinceable. Not to mention we are going back and reinforcing locations that I bet most folks have not thought to do. For example the car gets a Aluminum roof, that aluminum is no where near as rigid steel. The steel A, B and C pillars are strong when tied together, but very weak as they stand alone. So we will be reinforcing them prior to the roof install. This will really help with the body flex that happens with riveted Aluminum roofs. Many, many hours of thought and study have went into this before the first hole was made.

[Berlinista]

guys, realise this, and I know Daron knows this: A fully seam welded body, with a cage installed, behaves TOTALLY different in a crash. If you seam weld a body, as you should any serious racing car, it will NOT deform its crumple zones. Because it will not have those anymore. Driver safety will come through a good cage, decent seating that is well affixed to the floor. Good seat belts/harnesses, a HANS system etc. Not through the body deforming. The problem with this is mostly that you will not absorb kinetic energy, which is what a crumple zone doed.
Because of that, I am against driving seam welded cars on public streets. Although my own Bertone is seamwelded in quite some areas. It too has a cage and very serious harnesses, which I intend to wear correctly at ALL times. Which is NOT comfortable, but being a quasdriplegic is far less so.
Do not seamweld a car without a cage etc, because you might be quite surprised what happens in a head on accident if you are only wearing ordinary lap or triangular belts.
I take it Daron is punching holes all over for lightness, but in doing so is ALSO making use of the situation so that it will be stronger TOO. A bit Gordon Murray actually. The guy who hates 'a bracket on a bracket ' aka my favo designer, designer of the McLaren F1. etc. A bit Lotus too. Try to have things be multifunctional. Like here: make it stronger, AND lighter.
To gain speed, add lightness...
Colin overdid it sometimes, but I have this feeling Daron won't....

[MeanRedSpider]

Fully aware of all the crumple zone stuff. I guess my point/concern is that accidents aren't neat & tidy things where you hit something oblique, flat and smooth. The body doesn't only provide rigidity but intrusion protection too. And I'm not being critical just asking the question - as much for my own benefit rather than trying to be "clever".

It's a lovely job so far and I'm hoping to learn a bunch of stuff in this thread. One thing my wife has taught me (as the fantastic school teacher that she is) is that the question is every bit as important as the answer.

Done my own fair share of crashing & repairs GTA Replica Project

[akitaman]

I'm never going to get my garage cleaned today. All this great engineer dialog is enjoyable.

Berlinista- you are dead on my friend. All the light weight efforts would be pointless if we don't stiffen the car in the first place.

Richard- your questions are very well thought. And we all should explore and define (if willing). That is the point of the BB, (or as I see it) share and learn.

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Berlinista guys, realise this, and I know Daron knows this: A fully seam welded body, with a cage installed, behaves TOTALLY different in a crash. If you seam weld a body, as you should any serious racing car, it will NOT deform its crumple zones. Because it will not have those anymore.

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super1600 Ditto I know where Pete is comming from but perhaps in a way a 2L 105 GTV is slightly more common than a stepnose, and as well as given there are some apparent strengths in the chassis etc of a 2L over a stepnose, hence the reason for going for converting this model. Ditto in going for a non rusty one this means less work and therefore some savings to the owner.

[akitaman]

Pete- you and all your loved ones I hope are far from those fires down there. It looks to be a horrid situation. I was thinking of you guys when I saw the news report.
As for details on this project, Two things, one, I would hope anybody who does this to a car knows to never weld a crumple zone. It is ever so important to allow a car to distort as designed in the event of a accident. The only thing I would suggest (and one better know what there are doing) is there are area's in some cars (not GTV's) that you could punch and flare with-in a zone. The other point, is this car is going to be a street car with track day events in its future. It was a excellent option, because it is rusty in many areas (I will show the repairs as I get to them) and the car had been gutted. No motor, trans, interior parts missing, fuel system is gone, lights, grill, bumpers are gone too. Believe me, this car was ideal for the plan. There are plenty of GTV's I would not be willing to do this to. But this one really fit well. Stay safe my friend.

[PSk]

Quote:

Originally Posted by akitaman Pete- you and all your loved ones I hope are far from those fires down there. It looks to be a horrid situation. I was thinking of you guys when I saw the news report.

[gprocket]

Pete:

I share your concern for the preservation of the species. But I think this sort of project elevates the interest in both racing AND preservation ultimately saving more cars.

Years ago my brother and I were big into Model A Fords and were dismayed that so many were being cut up for hot rods. But the restorer's club folks felt differently knowing that it was because of the hot rod community that far more stock Model A's survived. The hot rodders spurred interest in the cars in general and allowed for numerous aftermarket suppliers to make it economically feasible to sell reproduction parts. Nowadays you can pretty much build a Model A (or 55 Chevy or whatever) from aftermarket parts.

Unfortunately as long as the cost to restore our cars far exceed their value they will be vulnerable. And the corollary is likewise true: As long as the car is worth more in parts than whole they are vulnerable.

But If a supply of reasonably priced reproduction parts can be established coupled with the knowledgebase that a site like this provides (and specifically the techniques and tricks that guys like Daron are willing to share) then our cars have a fighting chance. And every time a Vintage Customs Alfa (stock, racer or even custom) drives down the street it's like putting up a billboard saying "Save the Alfas".

My $.02...

[Super1600]

I think enough has probably been debated on the basis for this specific project and/or in general. Pete for the record, I too am not keen on seeing a good car cut up for projects, but on the other hand, this will probably always happen and its not just confined to 105s or even Alfas in general. I previously have commented on this sort of situation here in Aus happening with Group S and the conversion of many early Alfetta GTVs, given that relatively few have survived the dreaded rust bug. I think Daron has cleared the situation up on this particular shell.

What I do find interesting though is the discussions on the engineering, lightening and safety considerations that is going into this car. Daron, Berlinista (Rik) and Meanredspider (Richard), certainly seem to have considerable knowledge on the balance between seam welding sections of the shell for the purpose of rigidity vrs the need to retain areas which will crumple in the liklihood of an accident. Safety for the driver being paramount.

Daron, in constructing this car, it would be most inciteful if it is possible to highlight those areas in any photos you take to show where such strengthening is used. Similarly, where the cage is attached to the vehicle.
While I am not yet in a position to build up a car for competition, I remain hopeful that one day I will be. So any help on this front would be most informative.

I do recall seeing years ago when guys were buillding up club rally cars they only really seam welded up the engine bay, and perhaps a little in the rear of the cabin, though this was mostly with old Datsun 1600s, which were an effective club level rally car. I doubt though that there was much engineering thought that went into the level of seam welding, but rather simply what they thought they should strengthen based on other mate's experiences.

BTW, in case you havn't heard just how bad the fires have been, this morning's news reported that 173 people have lost their lives and some 700 plus homes lost in Victoria, not SA. If you do your figures this means that possibly upto 1500 + people have become homeless as a result of this. Its difficult to comprehend. I would hate also to think of the devestation to the wildlife as well. I just don't know how people who light such fires can live with themselves. Dave

[MeanRedSpider]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super1600 BTW, in case you havn't heard just how bad the fires have been, this morning's news reported that 173 people have lost their lives and some 700 plus homes lost in Victoria, not SA. If you do your figures this means that possibly upto 1500 + people have become homeless as a result of this. Its difficult to comprehend. I would hate also to think of the devestation to the wildlife as well. I just don't know how people who light such fires can live with themselves. Dave

[gigem75]

My thougths and prayers go out to those who have been devastated by the situation you all are enduring.