Giulia Spider 1962. Norwegian re-restoration.

[Subtle]

Einar

Will be pleased to watch your progress.

Bob

[Gordon Raymond]

Einar,
Generally with the spiders, the main structural members are the sills internal members, along with the attachment to the cowl support, visible when the outer sheetmetal is removed. The rear attachment of the sill structure may be corroded away as well, but from those I have seen in the U.S. the front seems to be the area that makes the spiders get crooked, probably from the combination of engine weight and torque.
Those where I have participated in the repair, were either done one side at a time, if enough structural strength remained in the opposite side, or if the whole thing was floppy, a jig below to keep things straight, and temporary small box section or tubes tacked in above to hold it together. As skilled as you are, you know, once one side is correct, the other becomes, by comparison, much easier.
Do you think you will repaint it Sky Blue? The older spiders do look nice in that color. That is, however, a personal opinion. Mine is red, but over the years, I have also owned Black, Yellow, Sky Blue and Grey. If I ever restore another, I would like the blue or yellow, though Patrick's car in black is lovely, and reminds me of my black 1960 Giulietta. Gordon Raymond

[ESjaavik]

It seems the sills were replaced. I'll take off the outer sills to be able to inspect better.

The box sections across the bottom of the car was replaced from the longitudinal member and out. So was big parts of the floor. If he took out all of that at the same time without any jig, Murphy will be very busy! I'll have at least to cut those at one maybe two places and take out pieces of the floor. That will make it floppy again. If not, I'll have to cut more places. The box sections are good, so need not be removed, just weakened where they meet another section.

What worries me more are the reverse curved surfaces. If you look at the parts I made for the bootlid, they are compound curves. Like a bowl. Fairly easy to make with a bit of patience. Put a bit of sheet on a purse filled with sand and hit it many times with a mallet and you have a piece of lumpy bowl shaped scrap. Planish it over a dolly and you may have a body part after some training.

But the wheel flares make a reverse curve against the fender side. An example of a reverse curve is a saddle or a potato chip. They are not easy to make by hand. If you make >1000 pieces you would stamp them. But that requires heavy and expensive tools and dies. I can't really tell how to make it by hand, because I don't know yet.

Tell me Raymond, the box for the air horns in your right front inner fender, how is the bent trumpet shaped section going from the top spring seating back to the firewall arranged? (can be seen if looking in over the wheel) Is it just cut?

And I may go for sky blue if that is what I think it is, a fairly light blue. But there will be lots of time before the top coat goes on, so there will be opportunities to see it in real life. I think that's the color on a spider not too far from where I live. I just have to be there the day it is outside the garage.

[PSk]

Very impressive ... you have given me motivation to get back and finish my boot lid rebuild (for my GTV). It's been hanging on my garage wall while I do other things as it got me a little nutty ... the inner frame (which has had rust removed from all around the edges) unfortunately it's more complex than the 101 design?, I think ... I wonder if the steel is thinner too?




Can't wait to watch your progress .
Best
Pete

[Gordon Raymond]

(quote)
Tell me Raymond, the box for the air horns in your right front inner fender, how is the bent trumpet shaped section going from the top spring seating back to the firewall arranged? (can be seen if looking in over the wheel) Is it just cut?

Ok, I'll try with photos. This was done for the Ausca GTA engine conversion. Problem was, this is a 37 mm intake port GTA, and needed 120 MM air horns to make power. The box is a structural member now. It was made up of much thicker material than the inner fender well to support the structural member behind, that supports the suspension. We were unsure what the loading would be. All these years and some track time later, we were right, nothing has moved or changed shape. It remains as it was built 40 years ago.
Gordon Raymond

[ESjaavik]

@PSk: If I've given you the urge to make your Alfa happy, I'm happy!

Your frame is more complex in having those "warts" at the rear. It's more simple in not having the bow down the sides. It taxes your patience anyhow, but being nutty helps!

Nice looking welds on the lid. They probably look better in real life than on the photo. I found that judging shape and form by a picture is not easy. The texture difference and different direction of stripes from grinding makes it look uneven in a picture even when your hand cannot feel any bumps. The metal thickness in mine is originally 0.7mm and that's what I use too.

And thanks for the idea of making a temporary stiffener structure to keep it straight when attaching lid to frame. I was thinking of something similar but much more elaborate. That one is easy to make yet effective. It's now stored in my excellent-ideas-archive.

@Raymond: Your pictures are excellent! You've been on a steep learning curve there. And what do I spot on the left edge of the first picture? A Pertinax breadboard from the sixties with a diode on it? Those breadboards I can remember from my first electronic experiments. Haven't seen one for ages. If that mod was not done 40 years ago, you really have an eye for details.

Yesterday I took a heat gun and spatula and removed a bucket of bondo from the front fender. And for once I was pleased with what I found even if to most it looks horrendous. The wheel arch may actually be correct, but insted of hammering the welds to get rid of the buckling caused by the shrink, he throwelled it with bondo. In doing so he made the transitition to the side with a larger radius than it should be. So maybe I can just cut it out, make a strip to recover the 10-20mm I need to take out, and then weld it back in. It would save me the most difficult shaping. And it will be butt welds instead of the dreaded overlaps (rust generators) he used.

The heat gun method works fine here. No dust storm as when using sanding pads in the air grinder. It then also is all to obvious that the bondo was not really sticking close by the weld as the seam was not ground flat.

[Gordon Raymond]

Hi Einar,
You have a great eye for detail! The breadboard actually has a pair of diodes. GTA engines didn't idle well. Looking at some plugs, I found both electrodes were going away over time, not just the outside. This reminded me of Honda motorcycles, that fired plugs twice. What was supposed to happen, when "A" plug in # 1 cylinder fired, "B" plug in # 1 was supposed to fire 1 or 2 degrees later. What actually happened was when "A" fired, center electrode to outside, the field collapsing on that coil applied a reverse voltage to "B" coil, causing it to fire backwards, outside electrode to center! Essentially both plugs fired a once, then did it again 1 or 2 degrees later. As the engine ran faster, coil saturation was more limited, and this effect lessened somewhat. It occurred to me that if I could effectively isolate the coils, they would both only fire "A" or "B" plug correctly center electrode to outside. I made up a little breadboard, and by gosh, IT WORKED! More important, GTA engines now idled down to 6 or 700 rpm, like single plug engines, and were smooth down there. Back in time, I used to hand these out like business cards to GTA owners. I've no idea how many are still in use, but mine still works fine! Gordon Raymond

[ESjaavik]

OK I know you guys hate pictures, so I'll annoy you with some more.

Today I chiselled off some more bondo. I have put it in a plastic bag. Even if I did'nt do this until I realized it may be Guinnes book stuff, it's quite a bit. I'll save that for the end of the post so you can guess.

Here's pictures of the front:
Look closely and you will notice it looks like it got a facelift. The grille is quite vertical, almost sloping backwards. And the nose is too high.




In this last picture you can just see the bondo bag on the floor. It weighs 4.5Kg so far! And the door is still not done. Then I have the other side to do. My estimate is I'll reach 15Kg in bondo and paint. Then there is the double panels. So the car will be "allegrita" when back on the road. At least compared to what it was. I'll also scrape off most of the underbody goop and only put back a sparse layer. Stereo + speakers are out for good (what on earth was it doing in this car anyway.)

My buddy who owns the shop where the car lives now looked at the nose piece after I removed more bondo than on the pictures. He realized that nose is probably ending up in his dumpster and did not question whether I was giving up. He just mumbled something about there being a lot of metalshaping training in that car. At least no rust, and welding rust is the worst job imaginable.

[Ian Evans]

Einar,

I just discovered this thread. Very interesting, thanks for sharing. Wish you were here to give me pointers on my Maserati Indy. I need bits and pieces of floors...

Ian
63 Sprint
71 Indy

[ESjaavik]

Hi Ian,

One bit of advice: Try to get it out without damaging it more than necessary. If you hack it into pieces bent and molested, even a good sheetmetal man cannot get the correct shape. If you can take a tape pattern of it, preferrably before taking out the old panel, you can send that to Masachusetts or any other place to have the panel made. Go to MetalMeet - for Metalshaping Enthusiasts & Professional Metalshapers. I think you have to get a login to see the posts. Then go to "Metalshaping Tutorials" and then "Making a flexible shape pattern". If you have a lot of rust holes, cover them with aluminum HVAC tape first. After you have the replacement whether you make it yourself or get it made, then you cut out the old one. If you're patient, I'll get to that in this thread, because I have to make several parts for mine where I will use the flex tape pattern as a guide to get the correct shape. Then after the shape is right, contour patterns will help getting the arrangement right.

If you whack a piece of metal sheet with a hammer you get a pucker in it, you have changed it's shape by stretching You must shrink it to get it back to straight. If you roll it up you have not changed the shape, just the arrangement, you can unroll it to get it back to what it was.

The Spider was placed on the bedsheet folding machine frame today. We levelled this frame using a machine level accurate to 0.3mm/m. Some quick measurements indicate the car is not as crooked as I feared. We're talking 5mm or thereabout. I'm not so sure they were more straight out of the factory.

[ESjaavik]

I've been travelling a bit lately so progress is not so brisk. But I'm back and have some more things done now. First here is a picture of the jig I made to keep it straight. Two short pieces of steel were made for each side. Drilled and tapped to match the bolts for the lower front wishbone. Then welded to a piece of rectangle tube. These were bolted on one each side and connected by a square tube going across. All measured up to be symmetric.



This yellow tube rests on spacers to make the car level in all directions. Lengthwise the seam below the door openings are elected as level. This is the right reference for most cars.

Now I feel confident cutting whatever I like. And the left front fender lip was the lucky winner. It was glued onto the fender using an overlap "weld". I cut it just outside the "weld" and only through the outer panel. This because I think the lip may be straightened and reshaped to be correct. Since I left the fender part uncut, I have to clean off the old MIG seam and straighten the edge. Being an overlap that will leave enough metal to cut for a butt weld. And using TIG, it can be straightened and planished just like the bootlid.



Here you can see that the front clip is attached to the body using bent strips of unshaped sheet. So the bowed line along the top of the fender is lost for the first few centimeters behind the headlight frame. It all have to come off and get new pieces made. When being put back on the slant of the clip have to be corrected too as previously mentioned.

There were also some dings in the front fender that was not taken out, just filled to highest point with bondo. It took me less than 30 minutes to take out those. So why they did not do it is beyond me.

In this picture you can also see the frame that the car rests on now.

Now I need a measurement for putting the lip back on in the correct place. I laid a straight square tube over the top of the fenders and measured down to the highest part of the wheel opening. It came out at 170mm on the left side. Could someone with an original car do the same and report the result? Put a piece of polishing cloth on the top of the fender as protection.

Then I also need the distance from the door opening to the wheel opening at the height of the seam below the sill. And the distance to the front of the wheel opening. This so I can check that the lip used is not larger or smaller than it should be. The best would be to measure the radii, but that's not so easy.

[Gordon Raymond]

Hi Einer,
Take some pictures with your measuring tools at the spots you need located. I think there are too many variables in your written description. If you photo the measurements, there are lot of BB'ers that will help you with these. I'm sure some can come from my original car, a late '65.
Gordon Raymond

[ESjaavik]

I forgot to bring a camera today. But here are the measurements scetched on a previous picture:



The 2 yellow lines and the red line are those I need. And then one more:



Here I need the distance from the hood opening to the edge of the grille like it was taken with a calipers. Mine is too short, that's quite obvious. Look at the picture in the previous post. The slant of the grille is not correct. It needs to be moved forward at the top.

[Gordon Raymond]

Einar,
I can get those for you tomorrow. I would prefer to do it in sunlight, so I can photograph where my measurements are taken.
Gordon Raymond

[ESjaavik]

... and especially when the smell is caused by the heat gun as I remove the stuff. I'm at close to 10Kg. now! If you don't believe me, look here:



If you go back and look at the first pictures you will see it looks almost straight along the top of the fender all the way to the headlight rim. Under the bondo it's much closer to the correct shape. It's just the first few centimeters where I need to bang up a new panel to get it right. So strangely enough the job looks less daunting after the bondo is off.

Why on earth did they do that. I guess it's kind of a bad circle. Sniffing bondo does something to your brain. You need more of the same and it does not stop until you put away your hammers and dollies and put on the bondo using a shovel. Soon it will not be enough getting it up to correct shape, you have to sculpt your own. Yucckhh! Tasteless!



So my plan is to cut the poor stubnose along the weld seam that is halfway back to the hood opening. Then remove the piece back to that opening and make a new one. That's why I need the measurement along the back of it's "nose". Actually I will cut off the whole front that seems to be based on an original panel and trim away everything except the original shape. Then place it where it should be and make panels that makes the transitition as smooth as possible. Assuming the nose piece is correct, and the hood and fenders also, I think that assumption is good, it should all be right when I'm done. If I can get the nose placed right before doing this of course.

The car have no name yet. Was there ever a female Frankenstein?