What Would You Pay?

[AlfistiSA]

Richard

I'm going to "second" what GTD & Jay have said, we've got five of these Sprints & only one has a bad body, sadly it's the most valuable, being a '58 Veloce. This will be a 1000hr+ restoration.

The first large warning bell is that rusted "lip" around the boot area, it's more than just a "lip" as it is actually 3 pieces of metal sandwiched together:

1.) The visible top is the trailing edge of the rear deck area.
2.) The next layer is the trailing edge of the boot floor
3.) The bottom layer is the folded edge of the rear valance.

The words "Bertone" & "Rustproofing" or "Seam Sealing" do not actually go in the same sentance. To fix this, you will have to *split* the rear of the bodywork, the lower valance will have to be removed, the remains of the boot floor will have to be removed & the "lip" on the upper & lower valance will have to be re-fabricated & welded back together, complete with the new boot floor you have bought / made - of course this time you will use seam sealer on the joint.

Boot lids are another favourite rust spot, unlike the Spiders they are not generally interchangeable, seeing as Bertone was still hand-fettling these cars right up to the bitter end in '65. Size / shape & curvature all vary from one car to another & even getting your own boot lid to fit can be tricky.

Thirdly, the floors are toast, they all are, so don't worry, you can either cut & shape the replacements yourself, or buy from Italy.

Fourthly the sills are also toast - you will have to do repairs here - you did mention one A pillar was bad, the other will also need work.

Fifthly the doors will have rust in the bottoms - the (missing) trim strips were held on with mild steel bolts...... through the bottom of the doors....... you get the picture.

Lastly, the bumpers are missing, as are the grilles, these don't come cheap, neither does a full re-trim.

$1300NZ is a good starting point.

On the plus side, 1600 105 series mechanicals fit, the brakes & suspensions are dead easy & there are enough of us who have them & know how to fix them, BUT are you willing to invest the 1000 hrs & $10 000+NZ to do it properly. They are stunning when finished, but scruffy if done incorrectly.

Concept 101, (Dennis), in Sweden is rebuilding a '63 Giulia & he also has some deep-seated rust issues.

We're about 300 hours deep into the '60 Sprint, and still have to do some very minor cut & shut repairs on the very good body. I guess we'll be in for 750 hours when it's finished.

We're also a father & son team who rebuild our own cars.

Ciao
Greig
Sunny South Africa
2 x '57 Sprints
1 x '58 Sprint V
1 x '60 Sprint
1 x '61 sprint
2 x '60 Spiders
Some 105's
Some others

[GTD]

These pics may help in locating the serial number on the right side of the firewall/bulkhead - beneath the wiring grommet/above the ventilation tube.
The first pic is a 750 chassis showing the 5-didgit Bertone ID number, flanked by stars, stamped into the body. This number bears no reference for ALFA identification.

[6alfas]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alfajay Also mentioning whether it is a Veloce or normale, and the condition of the interior.

[alfavirusnz]

Once again thank you. Greig (AlfisiSA) I had an inkling the construction at the rear was how you described. That doesn`t faze me. I saw, and you`ve backed it up that the boot lid was far more difficult.
GTD-Alfista Sapien you`ve clarified where to find that chassis number-aren`t photos great. Unfortunately the car is 168KM`s(100 plus miles) away so I can`t recheck the car-it would have been great to get build date from Alfa Storico. I do know original colour was white though.
Items like missing bumpers and the stainless trim just under the doors are missing-the side grilles aren`t. How hard are these missing items to get overseas?
Tomorrow I hope to have a word regarding what we are prepared to offer to the owner via his wife. I have a sneaking suspicion that we are going to disappoint. They do need to sell though as they are moving from the farmlet they now inhabit to a home in the nearby town with only room for 6 cars -and I am told none of them will be Alfas-his first love has always been Lancias so about 20 cars will have to find new homes.

Richard J
`65 Giulia Ti 1600, `69 GT Junior, `74 GTV 2000, `76 Alfetta GTV, `77 Alfetta GTV, `84 GTV6.

[Alfajay]

You know, we may be coming at this problem from the wrong direction.

alfavirusnz originally posed the question as "how much should I pay for this car?". But, all of us who live in other currencies, and who may not be familiar with the vintage car market in NZ, have a hard time in coming up with a meaningful figure.

So, the question that we are answering - perhaps a better question - is: "should alfavirusnz buy this Giulia Sprint at all, regardless of price?". Most of us seem to be hinting "no" in our replies, but alfavirusnz doesn't seem to be fazed.

Frankly, if you are going to buy a car in this condition, it really doesn't matter WHAT you pay for it. By the time the car is restored and on the road, the acquisition cost is going to be a tiny percentage of the total project budget. Even if the prior owner pays you to take it away, it won't reduce the total cost appreciably.

alfavirusnz asked: "Items like missing bumpers and the stainless trim just under the doors are missing - How hard are these missing items to get overseas?" Well, they certainly aren't easy to find. This sort of thing turns up on ebay from time to time. Putting out the word to the 750/101 group on YahooGroups may turn up something. Shipping bumpers to NZ will no doubt be exhorbitant, but nothing seems to frighten alfavirusnz, so what the heck - go for it! Restoring that car will certainly be a character-building experience.

[alfavirusnz]

Jay, i'm not fazed because of the experience i'v built up. Here's an example of what I do, this is the right hand front corner (driver's side in New Zealand) of our latest aquisition, a 1965 Giulia TI 1600. I'm in the process of hand forming this section because i'm cheap and don't want to spend the NZ$300 or so for a bought replacement section which can go into other parts in the car.

Richard J

[AlfistiSA]

Hi Richard

I've just read over your messages & you are in a very fortunate position, the owner *has* to get rid of the car, so you are in a good bargaining position.

A quick search through the net to the UK suppliers Alfamann, Alfa stop, Alfaholics, Classic Alfa will yield some parts prices & you can use these for bargaining. Similarly the Italian site Biondi Lamierati will yield prices for panels & repair patches.

Again, these prices can be used for bargaining / negotiation.

When you get the car, I've got lots of detail on how to repair the sheet metal work. Good thing you can work metal & weld, your cut-and-shut is the most practical solution.

Ciao
Greig
Sunny South Africa

[cstlhn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlfistiSA When you get the car, I've got lots of detail on how to repair the sheet metal work. Good thing you can work metal & weld, your cut-and-shut is the most practical solution. Ciao Greig Sunny South Africa

[alfavirusnz]

Thanks Greig, a couple of these business`s I hadn`t heard of. The more info/pictorials the better as far as construction and repair work the better.
The question is "if" I get the car - we are trying to be totally unemotional with this possible purchase (v hard) yet we have mere mortals budget and are trying to be fair to everyone concerned-it would trouble me to think that I had "ripped off" the owner but knowing the chap I fear he may have an inflated view of what it is worth (being oblivious to its real condition & the work/cost required to bring it to a good standard) You are right though he does need to sell and his wife is increasingly having to look after his affairs-fortunately she is a little bit more realistic.
I`ll let this forum know if I am successful (or otherwise) My son & I would really love to own one.

Richard J
`65 Giulia Ti 1600, `69 GT Junior, `74 GTV 2000, `76 Alfetta GTV, `77 Alfetta GTV, `84 GTV6.

[AlfistiSA]

Hi Gents

David - Some of the pictures are on other threads, but the most are pictures of friend’s cars where floors / sills / panels & patches have been done - also an innovative solution, from Bill Gillham, to re-making boot floors, complete with the correct ribs. Your neighbour, GD, will keep you on the right track....

Richard - work on the wife, she will work on the stubborn husband, it's worked for me in the past. Tell the wife what your "limit" is, (be conservative), tell her that you want to use the project as "father & son bonding time", with the goal of rebuilding the car for your son to enjoy & hopefully pass on to his son. It helps to have a fist full of $$$ to be ready to hand to the wife - say $800-00 or so, (keep a bit in reserve just in case they quibble), but it's basic psychology, she wants the stuff gone, he's sentimental & a hoarder, (aren't we all), she wants new shoes & will work on him. In the end cash, is usually king.

This approach has helped me get at least 5 cars over the years, where the owner had an over inflated sense of value, but when presented with fact / figures, realised that I knew the cars, what was required & had an accurate assessment of costs involved.

That's my take on it, if you are armed with the knowledge & proof of what needs to be done - especially the boot floor & rear lip repair. It shows you have done research & are serious about the project.

I've underpaid on some & overpaid on others, it all evens out in the end.

If you or anyone wants panel patch pictures, please send me a private message & your email address & I'll send you pictures or Sprints / Spiders, with various items being replaced & Bill's hammer-forming solution for the boot floor.

Ciao
Greig

[alfavirusnz]

Guess what!
Discussed price today with owners wife and owner, and I guess it was no surprise having known this chap for years, that my offer of $3000 created a little animosity. Their reaction being this car is worth $45,000 - $55,000 NZ dollars when fixed up and and had been offered higher figures than my offer years before.
They are looking at between NZ$7000 and NZ$10,000 so i guess i am not going to be the owner of this sprint although i have an idea that closer to the deadline in the new year i may get a call.

Thank you for everybodies contributions and feedback, it was a great help.
Richard J

[pathung]

That's about USD 5,400 (NZ$ 7000); a bit high, I'd agree.

[Alfajay]

alfavirusnz had written: "Their reaction being this car is worth $45,000 - $55,000 NZ dollars when fixed up"

Using pathung's exchange rate of .77USD = 1 NZD, and chosing their midpoint of $50,000 NZ, that gives around $38.6 USD. Yea, I'd say that's about right, though the car would have to be in 99.9 point condition, and auctioned to the rich drunk crowd at Monterey to command a figure that is the top end of the range. Now if it were a lightweight Veloce, then $38K would closer to the bottom-middle of the range (yea I know, Alfa was done making lightweigths as well as veloce's by the Giulia Sprint era).

But, say they are right about its value as a restored car.

What these sellers are completely clueless about (and I know they are your friends) is what it will take to transform that rusty hulk into a restored car. I guarantee that it will cost well over $55,000 NZ to put that car right. Sure, you might write out checks for less, since you plan on doing the metal, body, and paint work. But, valuing your time at commercial rates, and adding the cost of all the parts that will need to be sourced/replaced/plated/machined, you will hit $55K pretty quickly.

People who value their cars in this manner ("it must be worth ten thousand because a restored one is worth fifty thousand") fall into the same trap as the sellers who add up the repair receipts on their clunker and figure the new buyer should make them whole. It just ain't gonna happen!

I'm sorry to hear that you got so psyched up to own this car, and then had the seller get so unrealistic. But look on the bright side - the next one you find HAS to be in better condition!

[kuni123456]

Richard,

I have restored a 1957 Giulietta Spider and a 1971 GTV and I feel that the car is worth about $4,000.00 US. The cost of restoration depends upon what you what to do with the car. I have a 1961 Sprint Veloce that was given to me by my father in 1968. He purchased the car in June, 1961 and it has been driven over 190,000 miles. I need to repaint the car and change the original interior. I would like to restore the car to better than new condition and had a estimate of $9,000.00 to repair and repaint the car. The body shop is well known to build custom cars. My car has very little rust, but you cannot find all the rust until you remove all of the paint. I think that purchasing a 1963 Sprint is not a bad ideal, but restoring any car can be expensive.

[alfavirusnz]

Yes its disappointing but i worked out what it was worth to us (bearing in mind I don