Just picked up a 1960 Veloce Spider barn find. Now what? - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

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post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-22-2014, 05:49 AM Thread Starter
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Just picked up a 1960 Veloce Spider barn find. Now what?

Well, technically it was a field find



This car has been owned by a family friend for the last 35+ years. I believe that once the car was purchased new, it was immediately turned into a race car. He was a tinkerer and over the years had the car apart like this multiple times. About 15-20 years ago though, it was taken apart and never put back together. It sat inside a garage for that time, but then has sat out in a field for the last 4 years. Once I saw the car, I just needed to get it out of the **** field to try and save this little guy.

My issue now is that I really don't have the liquidity to take on a full restoration like this. I'm a mechanic by trade and I'm a certified welder + fabricator in all types of welding, but I've never welded on a car like this before. Fortunately, the car comes with most all of her parts. The big thing that is missing are bumpers, and I believe the carbs. I still have to pick up the motor and trans plus some other misc items so I'm not quite sure what I will find with them.

My biggest question is, what would be a typical cost to have the car sent out and have the underside of the car replaced? I have seen worse that have been repaired, but unfortunately this one is still pretty bad in certain spots.

Ideally, I want to bring this car back. Not to a concours level, but to a extremely drivable street / track car. Then after some time like that, maybe then take the car to the next level of restoration. My biggest thing is just getting the car running and driving and for it to be safe. I have all sorts of engines laying around, including a euro 2.0 thats ready to go. Again I'm really not worried about the mechanical or cosmetics, just the structural integrity and safety.

Being that this car is a genuine veloce, it ultimately needs to be put back to it's originality, so I don't want to do anything that cannot be undone. This is kind of what worries me about the rust repair. If I send it out to a local shop, they will probably give me a structurally sound chassis back, but will it be done right? My guess is the cost of this is at least half of what a higher end shop would be.

Now again I am a certified welder, and have access to everything that I would need to do this car, but I've just never done a car before. I worry about bracing the chassis enough, cutting to much out at one time, making sure everything is square, and being able to do a respectable enough job to do the car at lease some justice haha.

Anyways, having just picked the car up last night, I still have lots to think about, and still need to dive into it a little further to see the extent. I've thought about just selling it to someone who can actually afford to bring the car back 100%, but it would be kind of hard to get rid of it. What do you guys think this car is worth? It is not numbers matching, but has the same vintage 1300 with a guilia ti 5spd. No log book, but I am hopeful on that front.

Here's some pics though.







































































It's stable mates. Well, it can join them once it's a little more respectable haha



So what say you, restore it? sell it? part it? or just store it?

More pics: Giulietta Photos by howardwestrealestate | Photobucket

'60 veloce spider, '63 Sprint, '65 SS (15k orig miles), '67 Duetto, '74 Kamm
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post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-22-2014, 08:06 AM
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I think you have answered your own question....Let me support your inclination not to restore it as you admit to limited liquidity and the liquid assets will not trickle out of your account with this.. Sellers remorse would never creep into the decision for me.

This car was stored outside in grass under a tarp which is almost as bad as storing it below the surface of a farm pod. It is a perfect environmemt for massive, catastrophic corrosion. From the looks of things, every box section and frame rail will have to be changed...in other words the whole car below the wheel arches. Then you can start restoring it.

The "basket" part adds more to the snowball. The firewall number even has questionable value to the unscrupulous... It's not in Fusi but probabaly can be traced through the Alfa archivist as an anomoly.

Good luck in your decision. Get a tetanus booster. I'd run.
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post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-22-2014, 08:42 AM
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Uncle's answer somewhat mirrors my own. First I would get documentation from the Alfa archives to determine exactly what you have, build date, color and so on. I would then inventory parts, and store them with the car, as I searched out missing items. If the car is a real '60 101 Veloce, you will never loose mony on this investment including cost of dry storage. Let it sit. The structural floor members need be done correctly to support the rest of the structure. Over time, as finances allow, you could farm out the stripped body shell to a good shop able to do a good job of the floor pans and sill structures. Done correctly, this will increase the value of the project, money in the bank (car) that will increase the value of the car, and assure you or future owners the car will not be parted out. You can do whatever mechanical work on components you are comfortable doing. Continue looking for parts to put the car on the street.
Eventually, you will either have the financial resources to complete the project and enjoy the car yourself, or sell the project without loss, having saved the car.
Patch work does not pay off on a potentially valuable car. Any structural work needs be done to a high standard or not at all, as it would have to be repeated to be done correctly. These cars are not inexpensive to correctly restore to solid drivers. At this point, preservation is your safest and most rewarding option.
My first race car was a 1960 spider veloce 101, I bought in '62 and raced to '66. It was a great winning car, and is now restored after several different owners, back as a very valuable street car. WISH I could afford to buy it again!


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post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-22-2014, 11:36 AM
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A Veloce it is always worth, please don't part it out

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post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-22-2014, 01:19 PM
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I agree with the above people that you need to identify your car using Marco Fazio's information. I should finish my 1961 101 Sprint Veloce restoration next month. The car was purchased four or five months are production by my father in late 1961 and I even checked to make sure that the car was a Sprint Veloce and not a Sprint Normale. The body on your car needs total restoration and will be expensive.
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post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-22-2014, 09:15 PM Thread Starter
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divotandtralee - the car is a 101.25 which is not even mentioned by Fusi. I have come across multiple sources stating that the 101.25's are US Spider Veloce's. The numbers match from tag to stamping and again the "F" is intact. I'm also not sure what you mean by the "basket" part? Thanks for your input though and I agree, the whole underside of the car basically needs replaced for it to be done right .

Gordon- Thanks for your input. I have sent out an email in hopes of getting some clarification on exactly what the car was when built. I'm 98% sure it's a genuine veloce though. Number + number plate starting 101.25, tamped F, drivers side front grille inlet, higher rpm tach, and the host of other veloce parts that were included. All of these things could have been changed, but I really doubt it with the history of this car. I like your approach though that if it is a veloce, it won't be depreciating, and in dry storage, letting it sit a while longer won't hurt anything haha. I leave for a trip this week and once I'm back I will start an inventory of parts. Luckily I have the original Giulietta service shop manuals and parts catalogue which will help me understand what exactly I am missing.

My biggest question right now is still how much will it cost to get the underside redone, as well as the rest of the body. My wild guess is somewhere around $25k for the underside and $15k for the body. Any thoughts?

'60 veloce spider, '63 Sprint, '65 SS (15k orig miles), '67 Duetto, '74 Kamm
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post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-22-2014, 09:39 PM
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[QUOTE=
My biggest question right now is still how much will it cost to get the underside redone, as well as the rest of the body. My wild guess is somewhere around $25k for the underside and $15k for the body. Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]


This car is beyond hope and salvation. Restoration at this point will defy logic and financial wherewithal it belongs now to the great beyond. All indications thus far leads to a veloce. Look at the front hubs and see if they are either cross or round.

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post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-22-2014, 11:11 PM
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Hi Folks,

Having owned one in the past & currently assisting a gent with his " 59 Normale Spider"; If your going to restore her, (Long Term Plan), Go out right now & buy a "Winning Lottery Ticket"; Power Ball Ticket preferably!! Your really going to need it!!

If you got the car for "FREE" or almost "FREE"; It may make a decent parts car?!?!?!

LOL, Russ

Current Toy, Sweet `73 Spider
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post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 05:25 AM
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My point of a "basket"--- This is a daunting problem because so many of the small details particularly FASTENERS becomes a real vexing issue. Catelogueing this stuff is WORK. All the nuts are 14 mm and specific bolts are not easily sourced without a complete parts car, even if it is a Normale. Tony S, on this site is familiar with that problem. Another issue is the front subframe that to me is completely toast as well as the trailing arm attachment points. Sand blasting will reduce the surface but this is so far gone, one would have to ask what will be left.. Now you are on a course of no return. There is just no metal there to weld to.

Cost? Billl Gillham and Lionel know how many hours to do a car to get to paint. I would expect over 350 hours to get this to the point of putting the welding equipment away. You do the math. My guess is you will be bumping over a hundred grand before you start assembly.

Yes, the "25' is weird but I have no doubt it is a true Veloce.

Personally, I only rescue dogs.... this is an inanimate object that in the grand scheme of things does not tug at my heart strings. If some one thinks it deserves to be rescued, more power to them. I like my 401K right where it is and can find better places for my money. Uncle

PS I had a SS, better than this that I bought for $5000 in the early 90's and kept it about three years. It came out of a field in Florida under similar conditions... worse because rust never stops in Florida. There is no dry winter. Something better came along. Had I wrapped up my self in this project, I would have missed the SZ I eventually restored. It's gone after noodling the math. It didn't make sense to me at the time and still doesn't. I made the right decision even at today's values.
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post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 06:23 AM
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After resurrecting my Veloce, my metal man is now working on a crashed, very rusty 1957 Normale in worst conditions than your car.

While my car has required 1000 hours, 1200 hours of metal work have been budgeted for this one, that is a lot of EUROS, but the owner has not thrown in the towel because his giulietta has a affective value added.
Now, for many alfisti any veloce has an added value, regardless of its history. If this is not the case, the best thing you can do is IMO to sell it to some reckless dude who take up the big challenge

Alejandro - Italy

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post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 06:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlfaDrone View Post
After resurrecting my Veloce, my metal man is now working on a crashed, very rusty 1957 Normale in worst conditions than your car.

While my car has required 1000 hours, 1200 hours of metal work have been budgeted for this one, that is a lot of EUROS, but the owner has not thrown in the towel because his giulietta has a affective value added.
Now, for many alfisti any veloce has an added value, regardless of its history. If this is not the case, the best thing you can do is IMO to sell it to some reckless dude who take up the big challenge
In a word.. madness.
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post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 07:00 AM
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True, Uncle, if I were him I'd build up another fake Sanesi to sell to someone who suffers from a saddest form of insanity

Alejandro - Italy

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post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by AlfaDrone View Post
True, Uncle, if I were him I'd build up another fake Sanesi to sell to someone who suffers from a saddest form of insanity
The Sanesi.... Morons with money! Makes my skin curl. Where are these morons when I am selling something?

I'll say one last thing and be done with my preaching.... Now that #11094 is exposed to eternity as to where it came from...no one in his right mind would pay top dollar for it AFTER it is restored, with lingering questions on how strong and well-done the remains really are hanging over it's provenance.. Amen... I'm out.
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post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 08:23 AM Thread Starter
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Alfa just got back to me and the car is a veloce that was built on August 1st 1960. Graphite Grey over Red.

For now, it sits.

'60 veloce spider, '63 Sprint, '65 SS (15k orig miles), '67 Duetto, '74 Kamm
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post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old 09-23-2014, 08:31 AM
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Anything can be fixed... And If everyone thinks it's gone...and you feel the same...Just fix it yourself buy some sheet metal and some rockers and go for it... you can't hurt it.
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