01-02-2007, 11:25 AM
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Lawrence,
Thanks for your note. I did the same with all the books you name, with the exception of the 50th Anniversary tome, and came out with a figure closer to that posted by dreceterini. I will re-calculate. I may be some time!
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Stuart
'56 Giulietta Spider, '57 Giulietta Spider Veloce, '57 Giulietta Lightweight Sprint Veloce, '60 SZ, '68 GTA, '76 2000 Spider
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01-02-2007, 01:32 PM
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 Quote:
Originally Posted by AR58SprintV
Dear Stuart,
Yes, I'm he. I'm looking forward to seeing Jan and yourself in April again!
The production numbers are a combining of Fusi, Tabucci and the parts book major body shell change split at 1493-06600(06611 in Tabucci) for Sprint and Sprint Veloce, as well as Autoclassiche, "Giulietta" by Anselmo NADA, and the 50th Anna. Sprint book, the Veloce Race History and period literature. Most were single-carb Sprints and included about 600 Sprint Veloces in total, all divided between 'lightweights' and 'confortovoles' neither being an official factory designation. 'Confortovoles' were really only offered at the end of 1957 and the beginning of 1958 as the SVZ, SS, and SZ became the racers choice, and the new production heavier bodyshell of the Sprint and Sprint Veloce precluded a continued 'lightweight'. There were no 'lightweights' nor 'confortovoles' after this. I have also heard that there may have been fewer than 100 'Confortovoles'.
I ran Steam Trains Burning Coal today to ring in the Anno Nuova
Keep up the revs,
Laurence
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I think you have us confused. I'm an old fart who has been involved with Alfas for 35+ years. We may have met, but I have never been to your place. I think you intended this post for "alfazagato".
All 750 sprint veloces were NOT either lightweight sprints or confortovales! The vast majority were NEITHER. They are steel bodied and virtually identical to the 750 normale sprints, except for having a veloce motor.
IMO, the last 750 sprint (either normale, veloce, lightweight or confortovole) is 06611, but some of the last cars with 750 bodies were built with 101 motors and transmissions.
The 101 motors and gearboxes were available in early 1958, and the 101 coachwork came out circa fall 1958.
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01-02-2007, 04:51 PM
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Dreceterini,
Where does put us with regard to total SVAs and did you do as I did to get to your total? Thanks
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Stuart
'56 Giulietta Spider, '57 Giulietta Spider Veloce, '57 Giulietta Lightweight Sprint Veloce, '60 SZ, '68 GTA, '76 2000 Spider
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01-02-2007, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfazagato
Dreceterini,
Where does put us with regard to total SVAs and did you do as I did to get to your total? Thanks
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My grand total of 750 SVs would be around 800, including 225-250 SVAs and around 100 confortovoles. This would include 750 series confortovoles built with 101 motors and transmissions AND 750 series veloces built with 101 motors built as late as 1959! (Alfa ran out of 750 series motors and transmissions before they ran out of bodies)
I am NOT including cars with 101 series coachwork.
There are also some early 101 series veloce sprints with full back seats, but I don't know if they should really be called Confortovoles or not.
In addition, not all of the SVZs started out as SVAs; some were SVs. Counting all the real SVZs (both early, middle, and late body styles), the SVS (Scaglietti) and the aerodynamic nose Bertone bodied car, I believe that there are only 18-22 cars in total.
All the rest of the SVZs (IMO) are modern (1970 and newer) rebodies on cars that fall into the proper S/N range. This would include S/N 1521, which is based on a sprint normale.
This is, of course, nothing more than an "educated opinion"....
Last edited by dretceterini; 01-02-2007 at 05:46 PM.
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01-02-2007, 07:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfazagato
Dreceterini,
Where does put us with regard to total SVAs and did you do as I did to get to your total? Thanks
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01-03-2007, 07:49 AM
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Just noticed this thread and am interested in the weight question re early SVs. The published weight of an SV lightweight is 770kg yet the weight for an SZ is 765kg. I cannot believe that a lightweight Sprint Veloce is only 5kg heavier given the heavier trim, the greater wheelbase, only some alloy panels etc etc.
My SZ actually weighs 810kg with a bit of fuel (probably about 25kg) and a roll cage (and not too much body filler!) so is pretty much what you'd expect. I plan to take my early lightweight SV for a weighing and will let you know what it weighs. Has anyone ever weighed one, and has anyone weighed a 750 confortovole with the steel panels and a later 101 SV??
It would be good to know what the 'real' weights are as opposed to what Alfa probably claimed to give them a bit of scope for competition lightening from the standard car.
Paul
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01-03-2007, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin cam
Just noticed this thread and am interested in the weight question re early SVs. The published weight of an SV lightweight is 770kg yet the weight for an SZ is 765kg. I cannot believe that a lightweight Sprint Veloce is only 5kg heavier given the heavier trim, the greater wheelbase, only some alloy panels etc etc.
My SZ actually weighs 810kg with a bit of fuel (probably about 25kg) and a roll cage (and not too much body filler!) so is pretty much what you'd expect. I plan to take my early lightweight SV for a weighing and will let you know what it weighs. Has anyone ever weighed one, and has anyone weighed a 750 confortovole with the steel panels and a later 101 SV??
It would be good to know what the 'real' weights are as opposed to what Alfa probably claimed to give them a bit of scope for competition lightening from the standard car.
Paul
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01-04-2007, 12:33 AM
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Dear Alfazagato Stuart (not dretceterini Stuart, who got me confused with someone who knew him),
I used to believe that there were only about 100 lightweights which were made, this being the oft-repeated claim of Kieth Martin's Market (investment) Letter, which followed that number with 4 stars. I worked then on some lightweights and began to look deeper: among my literature I found siccenctly:
Anselmi , edition NADA, in the Italian, and repeated in the 2004 English version, on page 76 says:
The 600 lightened Giulietta Sprint Veloce sports coupes built by April 1958 also had different body interiors in a further attempt to shed weight. During the same period, 200 Sprint Veloces with normal bodies and interiors were produced from the first batch of 6,000 Sprints. Most of them had wind-up side windows and were called Sprint Veloce "confortevoles". Another 2,095 Sprint Veloces were built after April 1958 and before the engine's cubic capacity was increased to 1600 cc.
I am led by further probing to the conclusion that of the 06611 or so 1st series bodies, there were perhaps only about 500 'lightweights' and 100 'confortevoles'. Again, after 06611, the main body changed and added weight. A 'confortevole' is not a 750/101 hybrid nor a 101; that is a transition car , using the chassis numbers up to 1493E-12,000, yet carring the later shell and phased in 101 mechanicals, such as the spilt-case transmission in September 1958. In his book "Giulietta", Evan Wilson calls up to 1493E-12,000a 'true' 750, but I don't agree.
All published press material prior to 1958 only refers to any production Sprint Veloce by what we now call 'lightweight'.
I loved your two-part 'ice racer' series in the 'letta about your SZ.
The point again for Lionel is that his car (SV 06611) needs and is worth doing and enjoying, just as the "barn find Spider Veloce 00666" SWB in the parallel thread is worth it!
Laurence
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01-04-2007, 11:25 AM
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Thanks Lawrence for your comments on the SZ article, Great car! Have all the books on my desk and have run out of fingers but Jan said she will assist me to add up all the production figures.
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Stuart
'56 Giulietta Spider, '57 Giulietta Spider Veloce, '57 Giulietta Lightweight Sprint Veloce, '60 SZ, '68 GTA, '76 2000 Spider
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01-04-2007, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AR58SprintV
Dear Alfazagato Stuart (not dretceterini Stuart, who got me confused with someone who knew him),
I used to believe that there were only about 100 lightweights which were made, this being the oft-repeated claim of Kieth Martin's Market (investment) Letter, which followed that number with 4 stars. I worked then on some lightweights and began to look deeper: among my literature I found succinctly:
Anselmi , edition NADA, in the Italian, and repeated in the 2004 English version, on page 76 says:
The 600 lightened Giulietta Sprint Veloce sports coupes built by April 1958 also had different body interiors in a further attempt to shed weight. During the same period, 200 Sprint Veloces with normal bodies and interiors were produced from the first batch of 6,000 Sprints. Most of them had wind-up side windows and were called Sprint Veloce "confortevoles". Another 2,095 Sprint Veloces were built after April 1958 and before the engine's cubic capacity was increased to 1600 cc.
I am led by further probing to the conclusion that of the 06611 or so 1st series bodies, there were perhaps only about 500 'lightweights' and 100 'confortevoles'. Again, after 06611, the main body changed and added weight. A 'confortevole' is not a 750/101 hybrid nor a 101; that is a transition car , using the chassis numbers up to 1493E-12,000, yet caring the later shell and phased in 101 mechanicals, such as the split-case transmission in September 1958. In his book "Giulietta", Evan Wilson calls up to 1493E-12,000a 'true' 750, but I don't agree.
All published press material prior to 1958 only refers to any production Sprint Veloce by what we now call 'lightweight'.
I loved your two-part 'ice racer' series in the 'letta about your SZ.
The point again for Lionel is that his car (SV 06611) needs and is worth doing and enjoying, just as the "barn find Spider Veloce 00666" SWB in the parallel thread is worth it!
Laurence
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Although not addressed to me, I disagree.
I have seen at least 20 times as more 750 series all steel eyebrows veloce sprints than 750 lightweight veloce sprints. I have had 4 all steel eyebrows 750 veloce sprints in my 35+ years of Alfa involvement, but no lightweight sprints....in fact I don't think I have seen more than a dozen or so lightweight 750 sprints in my entire life! As far as I am aware, there were no lightweight normales.
I believe that there were just 6011 750 sprint body and chassis units built. About 5500 had eyebrows grilles and 500 had eggcrate grilles. The vast majority of them were normales.
Out the the 500 with eggcrate grilles, as many as 300 had 101 drivetrains, and these are the so called transition cars, built from late 1958 through as late as 1960.
Of the 6611, about 5200 were normales and 800 were veloces.
Of the 800 veloces, about 225 to 250 were lightweights, and around 100 were confortovoles.
There are cars built with 750 all steel bodies, roll up windows, full back seets, eggcrate grilles and 101 veloce drivetrains. I include these in my total of 100 Confortovoles. I have personally had 2 cars like this; both about 25 years ago.
dretceterini
Last edited by dretceterini; 01-04-2007 at 12:39 PM.
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01-04-2007, 04:32 PM
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Dretceterini,
Thanks for your incisive comments. I hope too that I can shed some light on this matter shortly! As a matter of interest, my first veloce was a Confortovoles (egg crate, wind-ups and rear seat cushions) but had a definite 750 motor compete with DCO3s. Its chassis number was 06913, engine no 1315 *31503* and came complete with a barrel 4 speed box (which I still have all refurbished and ready to go). All the running gear was 750 too!
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Stuart
'56 Giulietta Spider, '57 Giulietta Spider Veloce, '57 Giulietta Lightweight Sprint Veloce, '60 SZ, '68 GTA, '76 2000 Spider
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01-04-2007, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfazagato
Dretceterini,
Thanks for your incisive comments. I hope too that I can shed some light on this matter shortly! As a matter of interest, my first veloce was a Confortovoles (egg crate, wind-ups and rear seat cushions) but had a definite 750 motor compete with DCO3s. Its chassis number was 06913, engine no 1315 *31503* and came complete with a barrel 4 speed box (which I still have all refurbished and ready to go). All the running gear was 750 too!
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Based on the chassis S/N you provide, that would mean your car was a 101 with a 750 motor! As far as I am aware, the last 750 sprint chassis was 06611!
I have seen sprint normales like that (750 motor in 101 body), but never a veloce with a 750 motor in a 101 body! (I have seen 750 veloces that were built with 101 motors)
Regardless, any version of the Confortovole is obviously very rare now, as are lightweight sprint veloces. Personally, I would place the value of these cars in concours condition at $75,000 or more, and for SVAs in concours condition, with great period race histories and documentation of such, at as much as $100,000+.
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01-04-2007, 05:16 PM
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Lionel,
That looks like a great project. I'll be following this one closely.
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Anthony Rimicci | 64 Giulia Spider | 65 GTA | 68 GT Jr.
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01-05-2007, 11:41 AM
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Dretceterini,
Stuart,
Last year a lightweight was sold by a friend of mine in the Bay area to another friend in LA for (I was told) $100k. Then my LA chum spent a lot of money on it! I think your figure needs two +s in today's market.
It seems to me that the US prices have risen to keep pace with the UK pound. Cars should be getting cheaper for us...but they are not! They are at a similar price to those on sale in the UK.
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Stuart
'56 Giulietta Spider, '57 Giulietta Spider Veloce, '57 Giulietta Lightweight Sprint Veloce, '60 SZ, '68 GTA, '76 2000 Spider
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01-05-2007, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alfazagato
Dretceterini,
Stuart,
Last year a lightweight was sold by a friend of mine in the Bay area to another friend in LA for (I was told) $100k. Then my LA chum spent a lot of money on it! I think your figure needs two +s in today's market.
It seems to me that the US prices have risen to keep pace with the UK pound. Cars should be getting cheaper for us...but they are not! They are at a similar price to those on sale in the UK.
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