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post #46 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 03:01 PM
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What a great thread! I have always been curious as to what caused certain changes in the SVZ design. Personally I think the SVZ's were far nicer looking than the later SZ. My main area of interest is in the shape of the rear of the car. Without knowing what the different shapes are called I will refer to certain design cues as the name. For example:The cars with the Lancia aurelia looking rear window (for lack of a better name) are the nicest looking and seem to have the most cohesive shape. Any idea why they changed to the later rear shape? I have often wondered if they had stuck with the Aurelia window rear shape would the later streched out SZ(coda tronca) have been neccesary? Here is an example of the Aurelia window rear I am refering to. Keep in mind I am speaking about the entire rear of the car not just the shape of the window.
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post #47 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 03:48 PM
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This is what the 1.1 liter Conrero Le Mans car looked like:

http://www.lemansmodelfanclub.org/alm/conrero1.jpg
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post #48 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by martinue View Post
Hi!
For a few years I am working on chassis registers of some limited Alfa Romeo production cars. I collect magazines and books and with help of the www (and Alfabb of course) I have listed some thousand events and photos regarding the Giulietta SVA (Alleggerita), SVZ, SZ, Giulia TI Super, TZ, GTA, GTAJ, GTAm and the Tipo 33. I will try now to write down something about the SVZ but of course it will never be complete. As you see there are many open questions left, not all the cars can be confirmed and I hope I did not make too many mistakes. Please feel free to add information, tell me what is wrong or simply enjoy the photos (I hope there are no copyrights with them, most of them came from the www or from the Alfa Romeo archives). And … sorry for my bad english
Martin
So let's begin
Hello Martinue,
Thank you for creating a great BB thread! Have you seen Adrian Smits' car-by-car review in issue 82 of the Giuliettaletta? It has information on 29 SVZs. If not, I will try to get a copy to you. Again, Nicely done!

Mike Macaulay
Seattle

69 Spider
69 GTV
74 GTV
84 Spider Veloce
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post #49 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by series1gtv View Post
What a great thread! I have always been curious as to what caused certain changes in the SVZ design. Personally I think the SVZ's were far nicer looking than the later SZ. My main area of interest is in the shape of the rear of the car. Without knowing what the different shapes are called I will refer to certain design cues as the name. For example:The cars with the Lancia aurelia looking rear window (for lack of a better name) are the nicest looking and seem to have the most cohesive shape. Any idea why they changed to the later rear shape? I have often wondered if they had stuck with the Aurelia window rear shape would the later streched out SZ(coda tronca) have been neccesary? Here is an example of the Aurelia window rear I am refering to. Keep in mind I am speaking about the entire rear of the car not just the shape of the window.
Each to their own. I'll take the shape of the Coda Tonda any day. I had a fourth series Aurelia for a couple of years, however I greatly prefer the compactness and simplicity of the SZ (the Aurelia is a fairly big car). Also note SZ running ahead of SVZ, proper order. - George

PS has this SVZ gotten any further documentation since it surfaced in Texas?
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post #50 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 09:26 PM
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Each to their own. I'll take the shape of the Coda Tonda any day. I had a fourth series Aurelia for a couple of years, however I greatly prefer the compactness and simplicity of the SZ (the Aurelia is a fairly big car). Also note SZ running ahead of SVZ, proper order. - George

PS has this SVZ gotten any further documentation since it surfaced in Texas?
Is it really fair to compare an SZ to an Aurelia? It is more comparable to a 1900 or even an 8V.
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post #51 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 10:10 PM
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Is it really fair to compare an SZ to an Aurelia? It is more comparable to a 1900 or even an 8V.
Maybe not but the SVZ in question certainly has some similar lines. - George
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post #52 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 10:13 PM
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Maybe not but the SVZ in question certainly has some similar lines. - George
I'll stick with the clean lines of the SZ.
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post #53 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 10:40 PM
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I knew of two SVZ's...one was owned by Bill Biggs of the San Diego Alfa club and didn't Fritz Durenberger of B.C. Canada have one in addition to his TZ? I could be mistaken about the body style.

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post #54 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-21-2006, 11:00 PM
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I knew of two SVZ's...one was owned by Bill Biggs of the San Diego Alfa club and didn't Fritz Durenberger of B.C. Canada have one in addition to his TZ? I could be mistaken about the body style.
Bill Biggs used to have SZ 00035 and Fritz Durenberger had SZ 00169. George
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post #55 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-22-2006, 09:21 AM
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The first SVZ was produced for the driver Massimo di Priole on chassis 01944, car on the attach pictures. The second picture, is at the Monza, with a front row at the parabolica during Coppa Intereuropa 1957. Its Carlo Maria Abate with number 41, Massimo Leto di Priolo with number 35, and Egidio Gorza with number 55
But haw was the SVZ really born.
By the end of second world war, in Italy, every kid, whose parents could afford it, should have a race car.
Mr Ugo Zagato made a car for his son Elio Zagato, the Marinella a Zagato build body and chassis. It was mounted by a Fiat 750ccm engine from the Fiat Topolino.The engine was with a special cylinder head the Testadoro,done by Giorgio Giusti. Yes father Ugo Zagato had the experience and know what was needed.
But Elio Zagato grow older and went into the family business. Mr Ugo Zagato prohibited thereafter Elio to participate in racing events.
But when its first is in the blood, its difficult to stay away.
In Milano was there a Scuderia Sant Ambrosiana,it was formed by a group of privateers that needed technical backup, around 20 persons. This group raced a lot of diff cars, Ferrari, Maserati, FiatV8,Lancia, Alfa Romeo and a lot of others.
The first Alfa Romeo 1900 Zagato was ordered by this group.
Elio Zagato was a member of the group, but as he was forbidden to race, he raced under synonym.
After the Alfa Romeo Sprint was presented, the group naturally immediate acquired one.
Massimo Leto di Priolo had in 1956 acquired one of the new Alfa Romeo Sprint Velose.The first Sprint Velose was intended as a racing version. with a weigh reduction of 72 KG compared to a normal Sprint. Gained by using aluminium on the doers ,hood, perplex side and rear windows, and the Wight was 780kg.
Massimo Leto di Priolo was so unfortunate to run into an accident, and did a lot of harm to the body.
The car was send to Zagato for repair. The people ad Zagato evaluated it was to costly to do a repair, the offered to make a new body for less cost the repair.
So the first SVZ was born, and it gain immediately succes.After that there build 3 double bobble similar to the Abate one.
I was a problem for Alfa Romeo that these Zagato cars took all the victory's. So they agreed with Bertone that he should produce a Light Weight version on the chassis from the Spider, it was the Sprint Speciale, but it was not able to beat the Zagatos.
Alfa Romeo denied to deliver chassis directly to Zagato, so customers brought a Sprint Velose by the dealer and send it direct to Zagato to get a rebuild. And probably al cars that went into serious problems on the race track went direct to Zagato to have a new body.
So these first series SVZ is not official Alfa Romeo cars, but modified by Zagato on the customers wish. That is also the reason they all, almost, look different to each other. This fact is also the reason, I suppose,whey there is so much gossip around the question whether one is a replica or original. There is in fact only the pictures from that time that can tell have the car really looked.
But as the success of the Zagato cars continued. There was only one thing for Alfa Romeo to, enter into an agreement with Zagato to produce cars for Alfa Romeo, to be distributed trough the Alfa Romeo dealer network.
The agreement was done in 1959, for 100 cars, witch was needed to get international homologation, and the result presented at the Paris Motor Show in 1960.
The Alfa Romeo Sprint Zagato was born, and its race debut was at the Grand Prix at Napoli the 15 of May.
In 1961 was a new version presented the TZ coda tronca.
If I have something wrong please correct me.
If anybody do have the production figures on the diff types, it could be interesting if they are filled in
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post #56 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-22-2006, 10:21 AM
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I have the Zagato bookby Gianfranco Fagiuoli and Guido Gerosa. This is in Italian which I can't read (darn!) There are some great pictures of the early Zagato's. On page 49 is a picture of the 1900 SS you speak of. Number 220 competing in the Stella Alpina of 1954. On page 52 is a picture of the early SVZ. On page 59 is what appears to be an official Alfa Romeo factory photograph of a 1960 SVZ. On page 62 is a photograph of the early TZ1 which shows similiar characteristics to the SVZ. This is very interesting reading about all of these cars.
Sidebar: I had a chance priviledge to drive the yellow SVZ that Joe Senesac owned for a brief time. What a car! I also knew in the early 80's a couple of guys that were owners of a couple of the double bubble 750 Fiat Zagatos. Never had the chance to drive one as they were in restoration.

Christopher

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post #57 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-22-2006, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 2000 touring sp View Post
The first SVZ was produced for the driver Massimo di Priolo on chassis 01944, car on the attach pictures. The second picture, is at the Monza, with a front row at the parabolica during Coppa Intereuropa 1957. Its Carlo Maria Abate with number 41, Massimo Leto di Priolo with number 35, and Egidio Gorza with number 55
But how was the SVZ really born.
By the end of second world war, in Italy, every kid, whose parents could afford it, should have a race car.
Mr Ugo Zagato made a car for his son Elio Zagato, the Marinella a Zagato build body and chassis. It was mounted by a Fiat 750ccm engine from the Fiat Topolino.The engine was with a special cylinder head the Testadoro,done by Giorgio Giusti. Yes father Ugo Zagato had the experience and know what was needed.
But Elio Zagato grow older and went into the family business. Mr Ugo Zagato prohibited thereafter Elio to participate in racing events.
But when its first is in the blood, its difficult to stay away.
In Milano was there a Scuderia Ambrosiana,it was formed by a group of privateers that needed technical backup, around 20 persons. This group raced a lot of diff cars, Ferrari, Maserati, FiatV8,Lancia, Alfa Romeo and a lot of others.
The first Alfa Romeo 1900 Zagato was ordered by this group.
Elio Zagato was a member of the group, but as he was forbidden to race, he raced under synonym.
After the Alfa Romeo Sprint was presented, the group naturally immediate acquired one.
Massimo Leto di Priolo had in 1956 acquired one of the new Alfa Romeo Sprint Veloce.The first Sprint Veloce was intended as a racing version. with a weigh reduction of 72 KG compared to a normal Sprint. Gained by using aluminium on the doors ,hood, perplex side and rear windows, and the Weight was 780kg.
Massimo Leto di Priolo was so unfortunate to run into an accident, and did a lot of harm to the body.
The car was send to Zagato for repair. The people ad Zagato evaluated it was to costly to do a repair, the offered to make a new body for less cost the repair.
So the first SVZ was born, and it gain immediately succes. After that there build 2 more double bubble similar to the Abate one.
I was a problem for Alfa Romeo that these Zagato cars took all the victory's. So they agreed with Bertone that he should produce a Light Weight version on the chassis from the Spider, it was the Sprint Speciale, but it was not able to beat the Zagatos.
Alfa Romeo denied to deliver chassis directly to Zagato, so customers brought a Sprint Velose by the dealer and send it direct to Zagato to get a rebuild. And probably all cars that went into serious problems on the race track went direct to Zagato to have a new body.
So these first series SVZ is not official Alfa Romeo cars, but modified by Zagato on the customers wish. That is also the reason they all, almost, look different to each other. This fact is also the reason, I suppose,whey there is so much gossip around the question whether one is a replica or original. There is in fact only the pictures from that time that can tell have the car really looked.
But as the success of the Zagato cars continued. There was only one thing for Alfa Romeo to, enter into an agreement with Zagato to produce cars for Alfa Romeo, to be distributed trough the Alfa Romeo dealer network.
The agreement was done in 1959, for 100 cars, witch was needed to get international homologation, and the result presented at the Paris Motor Show in 1960.
The Alfa Romeo Sprint Zagato was born, and its race debut was at the Grand Prix at Napoli the 15 of May.
In 1961 was a new version presented the TZ coda tronca.
If I have something wrong please correct me.
If anybody do have the production figures on the diff types, it could be interesting if they are filled in
Small correction:
Scuderia Ambrosiana started in the 1920s and existed through the early 60s. Scuderia St.Ambroeus is a seperate team, but some members of Scuderia Ambrosiana joined it when Scuderia Ambrosiana was disbanded.

As to the Guisti Testadoro Zagato, I believe 9 cars were built, but none exist today.

Giuisti's first car is called the Drin Drin (a barchetta, rather than a cycle fendered car), another called the Daniella and two others called the Marinella I and II. As far as I am aware, only the Daniella exists today.

The Testadoro motor was basically a Fiat Topolino A motor converted from side valve to OHV in a V, through a pushrod system (like the BMW 328) and stretched to 660cc. I believe an 1100cc version was also made. Roselli, who was involved with the Alfa Bimotore project, was also involved in the Testadoro project.

There are also other 750cc sports racers such as the Fiat Pumas and Fiat Brancas that used the Testadoro motor.

Guisti was also involved in the construction of other "specials" including the Revelli-Monaco which used a Giusti modified BMW 328 motor, and later a modified Fiat 1100 motor.

Circa 1952, one of the Testadoros had the testadoro motor removed (probably blew up) and had a Siata 750cc Topolino based motor installed.

In the photo showing all the Giulietta sprints, I believe car #43 (2nd row, left) is a sprint veloce, modified by Bertone in 1957, or a "SVB". There are other pictures of this car in the racing giuliettas book.

Last edited by dretceterini; 12-22-2006 at 11:16 AM.
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post #58 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-23-2006, 06:03 AM Thread Starter
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First of all thank you for your replies. Most of the photos came from various Alfa books and motorsport magazines (I scan every picture I can get), the race results from Auto Italiana, which I have nearly complete from 1956 to 1969. AlfistiSA will try to send me Adrian Smits SVZ list of which I am very curious about. It will be great to bring it together with my research.
To specify the Sprint Veloces I use to add an “A” for the first series 750 Alleggeritas (1956-1958), a “C” for the 750 Confortevoles (1957-1958) and an “II” for the second series Tipo 101.
As 2000 touring sp wrote, the first SVZ #01944 had a design for its own, than about three cars has the 1957 line with double bubble roof (Abate, Gorza, and Schild), but the 1958 and 1959 look all very similar with only the roof different with double bubble roof or not. Since the surviving cars are nearly fifty(!) years old, and most of them were used for racing so it does not wonder that so many noses and rear sides does not meet the original lines (The same thing happened to all the other racing Alfas, GTA, TZ and Tipo33, this does not make it easy to identify repaired cars from new recreations). The first SVZs were even built on damaged Sprint Veloces for privateers.
SZ #0001 was shown at Genéve (CH) first, the very first race was the 1960 Targa Florio, but all SZs (#0001, #0016 and possibly #0002) failed to finish. The GP Napoli at Posillipo one week later was indeed the very first success for the SZ (Kim drove #0001)



Re: 2000 touring sp (thank you for your scans!)
19600625-26 Le Mans 24h (F), No. 40 SVConrero1150 Bernard Consten/Francesco De Leonibus (F/I), Squadra Virgilio Conrero, DNF (S1.15, tubular frame chassis with 1150cc Giulietta engine, 613 kg, gearbox failure): the chassis did not come from a Giulietta
Name:  19600701 AutoItaliana13 003a.JPG
Views: 5117
Size:  61.0 KB
19580817 Flugplatzrennen Zeltweg GT (A):
No. 65 SVZ Herbert Schultze (D), Autowax Berlin, 2cl (GT1.3)
No. 69 SVA (TO 260710) Carlo Peroglio (I), Racing Club 19/Squadra Conrero, 4cl (GT1.3)
No. 66 SV (W 450.168) Steffan Aga (A), Steffan Aga (GT1.3)
No. 68 SV (TO 231277) Luciana Guaschino (I), Racing Club 19 (GT1.3)
No. 70 SVZ #01849? Ada Pace (I), Racing Club 19 (GT1.3)
No. 71 SV (MI 346755) Giancarlo Baghetti (I), Scuderia Sant’ Ambroeus (GT1.3)
No. 72 SV (GL 973) “Frederic” (A), “Frederic” (GT1.3, swiss registration)
No. 73 SV Ernst Schmid (D), Ernst Schmid (GT1.3)

19570225-0301 Rallye del Sestrière (I), No. 62 SVZ #02158 (TO 209716) Carlo Maria Abate/Mottura (I), 3oa, 1cl (TS1.3/GT1.3)

19590920 Pontedecimo-Giovi (I), No. 162 SVZ #02289 (TO 267091) Francesco De Leonibus (I), 5cl (GT1.3)

19610716 Aosta-Pila (I), No. 172 SVM #04718 Carlo Peroglio (I), 3cl (GT), 2cl (GT1.6), 1cl (GT1.3)

643 EH 14 (F): SVZ (that one I forgot in my list, of course not a 1600GTZ which came 4 years later)
19580515-18 Deutschland-Rallye (D), No. 37 Jean Hébert/Bernard Consten (F), 1oa, 1cl (GT1.3)
19580704-12 Critérium International des Alpes (F), No. 207 Bernard Consten/Roger de Lageneste (F), Squadra Conrero, 1oa, 1cl (TS1.3/GT1.3)
19580828-31 Marathon de la Route – Liège-Rome-Liège (B), No. 37 Bernard Consten/Jean Hébert (F), Squadra Conrero, 1oa


19570908 Coppa Intereuropa GT1.3 – Monza (I):
No. 35 SVZ #01944 (MI 304696) Massimo Leto Di Priolo (I), Scuderia Ambrosiana, 1oa
No. 21 SV Elfo Frignani (I), Scuderia Janua
No. 22 SV Piera Bertoletti (I), Piera Bertoletti/Scuderia Mediolanum
No. 24 SV Pietro Fontana (I), Scuderia Janua
No. 25 SV #01461? Sergio “Pegaso” Bettoja (I), Scuderia Campidoglio
No. 26 Sprint Rocco Lanzini (I), Scuderia Madunia
No. 27 SV #01381? Scipione Paon (I), Scuderia Cangrande
No. 29 SV Karl Foitek (CH), Karl Foitek
No. 30 SV “S. Mercurio” (I), Scuderia Centro Sud
No. 31 SV Oreste Fezzardi (I), Scuderia Janua
No. 33 SV Pietro Laureati (I), Pietro Laureati
No. 34 SV Eraldo Nicosia (I), Scuderia Ambrosiana
No. 36 SV Costatine Spiliotakis, Scuderia Ambrosiana
No. 37 SV (CR 36224?) Dore Leto Di Priolo (I), Scuderia Ambrosiana
No. 39 SV “Satrapo” (I), Scuderia Madunia
No. 40 SV #02049? Attilio Lodovici (I), Scuderia Campidoglio
No. 41 SVZ #02158 (TO 209716) Carlo Maria Abate (I), Racing Club 19, DNF
No. 42 SV #01849? Ada Pace (I), Racing Club 19
No. 43 SV (MI 313673?) Aristide Molteni (I), Scuderia S. Amboeus
No. 44 SV (MI 334291?) Giancarlo Fraccari (I), Scuderia S. Ambroeus
No. 45 SV Vladimiro Galluzzi (I), Scuderia S. Ambroeus, DNS
No. 48 SV Pierpaolo Poillucci (I), Scuderia S. Ambroeus, DNS
No. 49 SV #03907? Sergio “Kim” Pedretti (I), Scuderia S. Ambroeus
No. 51 SV (MI xxxxxx) Vitale Giroldi (I), Scuderia Madunia
No. 52 SV #01764? Vittoria Maffi (I), Scuderia S. Ambroeus, DNS
No. 53 SV (SO 7478?) Alberto Quadrio Curzio (I), Scuderia S. Ambroeus, DQ? (dangerous driving?)
No. 55 SVZ #04069 (FO 34731?) Egidio Gorza (I), Scuderia S. Ambroeus
No. 56 SV Andres Frieder (I), Scuderia Madunia
No. 57 SV #01826? Alma Cacciandra Bordoni (I), Scuderia S. Ambroeus

Re: dreceterini
19580907 Coppa Intereuropa GT1.1/GT1.3 – Monza (I), No. 33 SV Aristide Molteni (I), 2oa, 2cl (GT1.3, photo: aerodynamic nose by Bertone)
Name:  19580907 Monza No45 Berney No33 Molteni No40 #03907 Kim 001a.JPG
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Size:  66.8 KB

Last edited by martinue; 12-23-2006 at 06:06 AM.
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post #59 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-23-2006, 09:28 AM
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SVZs in the Targa Florio:


1958
8th OA, 2nd in GT class (class winner 1600cc Porsche): Todaro/Dagnino
9th OA, 3rd in GT class: Abate/Balzarini
10th OA, 4th in GT class: Toselli/Filippa
over time limit in GT class: Pace/Peroglio
DNF in GT class: Bettoja/De Rosa



1959
6th OA, 3rd in GT class, 1st in GT under 1300 (1st and 2nd in GT class 1600cc Porsches): Sepe/Davis
10th in GT class, 6th in GT under 1300: Rosinski/Bobrowski

1960
DNF: "Sagittario"/"X"


SVZs in the Mille Miglia
1957
21st OA Lauretti #122
DNF Gorza #106

Last edited by dretceterini; 12-23-2006 at 11:43 AM.
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post #60 of 739 (permalink) Old 12-23-2006, 02:49 PM
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Great thread.
I guess this is the Abate car as it is today?
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