The complete SVZ file - Page 19 - Alfa Romeo Bulletin Board & Forums

  #271 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by dretceterini View Post
Yes, car #170..
170 Ada Pace (SVZ now Facetti tuning after leaving Conrero in Summer)
166 "Kim" (SVZ Pasqualino Cazzato [his father in law and well known OSCA and Maserati tuner] tuning)
168 Aristodemo Molteni (SV with front modified by himself, not by Bertone). He later modified in the same manner the SS front. Pictures to come. Also Ada Pace used a similarly modified SV, but with external main lights, in the Mille Miglia 1957
175 Carlo Peroglio (SV Conrero tuning)
165 Francesco De Leonibus (Toselli's jellow SVZ [IMHO still] Bosato tuning, later Conrero).
So, by means of the Pace's car, Pietro Facetti knew Conrero's secrets as well as Almo Bosato, IMHO the best italian tuner, presented his recipes to Conrero with the engine of Toselli, 1958 Italian Class Champion.
In 1959 Sergio Pedretti, Kim, passed under Facetti's flag and won the Italian Class Championship.
One more comment: only Bosato was able to obtain the lightest SV (roughly 800kg, 30kg more than the homologated minimum weight of 770kg). Normally a racing SV weighed more than 830kg without fuel. This was the fortune of Elio and Gianni Zagato: Appendix J of the Fifties and early Sixties allowed cars equipped with a special bodywork, mantaining the same minimum homologated weight of the original car
(see http://www.fia.com/resources/documen..._Art_264_a.pdf)
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  #272 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curami View Post
170 Ada Pace (SVZ now Facetti tuning after leaving Conrero in Summer)

166 "Kim" (SVZ Pasqualino Cazzato [his father in law and well known OSCA and Maserati tuner] tuning)

168 Aristodemo Molteni (SV with front modified by himself, not by Bertone). He later modified in the same manner the SS front. Pictures to come.

Also Ada Pace used a similarly modified SV, but with external main lights, in the Mille Miglia 1957

175 Carlo Peroglio (SV Conrero tuning)

165 Francesco De Leonibus (Toselli's yellow SVZ [IMHO still] Bosato tuning, later Conrero).

So, by means of the Pace's car, Pietro Facetti knew Conrero's secrets as well as Almo Bosato, IMHO the best Italian tuner, presented his recipes to Conrero with the engine of Toselli, 1958 Italian Class Champion.

In 1959 Sergio Pedretti, Kim, passed under Facetti's flag and won the Italian Class Championship.

One more comment: only Bosato was able to obtain the lightest SV (roughly 800kg, 30kg more than the homologated minimum weight of 770kg).

Normally a racing SV weighed more than 830kg without fuel. This was the fortune of Elio and Gianni Zagato: Appendix J of the Fifties and early Sixties allowed cars equipped with a special bodywork, maintaining the same minimum homologated weight of the original car

(see [url
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/801651789__Hist_App_J_61_Art_264_a.pdf[/url])


Thanks in advance for all the photos. Things like this are almost impossible to find here in the US.

There are a handful of "obscure Alfa" and "etceterini" nuts like myself, John DeBoer, Peter Zobian, Cliff Reuter, Dave Mericle Jr., and a few others that buy up everything that we can find if the price is within reason, and sometimes even if it isn't (such as Adriaensen's Fiat 8V book, which is more than what most people can really afford, but is a must to have)

Cliff Reuter has started an "etceterini" website, with the help of some of we American "etceterini" fanatics. I am sure he would very much appreciate your help.

http://ferrariexperts.com/etceterini.htm


Fortunately, I can understand some Italian, French and German, as I lived in Europe most of my life, but most Americans want books ONLY in English. One of the biggest car book stores here in the US, located in Burban, California, will NOT import books in any langauge other than English, so we have to buy them directly from European dealers. As to "La Sport", I think enough copies of a revised "etceterini" book in English could be sold to justify the costs..
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  #273 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007, 11:10 AM
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Stu:
the main problems are related with translation and editing costs (Giorgio Nada now is Giunti). When the book was written, the late Piero and I thought that the major part of "etceterini" fans necessarily were able, at least, to undestand written italian language. Secondarily, I don't like books in two or more languages (e.g. Automobilia) and two different editions (one in italian, the other one in english language) were judged too expensive and risky (the italian one) by the publisher.
The third and major problem is that the book must be updated because a lot of other informations and pictures were found on minor italian "artigiani"

Best Regards

Andrea

Any realtion to the Giunti from Casa 'dell Auto/Testadoro...or to the later (70s) Alfa driver?
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  #274 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dretceterini View Post
Any realtion to the Giunti from Casa 'dell Auto/Testadoro...or to the later (70s) Alfa driver?
Stu:

Absolutely no relation with Giorgio (Giusti) of Casa dell'auto and Testadoro fame as well as with the ill fated Ignazio Giunti, well known driver of Giuliettas, Gtas, 33s and, lastly, Ferrari.
Giunti is a big publisher from Florence, but pretty "new" to the automotive sector.
Speaking about the Italian market and related difficulties, Automobilia, for example, is anymore existing and so on...
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  #275 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by curami View Post
168 Aristodemo Molteni (SV with front modified by himself, not by Bertone). He later modified in the same manner the SS front.
Very interesting information. Could the SS you mention be the car Mcfee65 tried to identify in this thread?
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  #276 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by curami View Post
Stu:

Absolutely no relation with Giorgio (Giusti) of Casa dell'auto and Testadoro fame as well as with the ill fated Ignazio Giunti, well known driver of Giuliettas, Gtas, 33s and, lastly, Ferrari.
Giunti is a big publisher from Florence, but pretty "new" to the automotive sector.
Speaking about the Italian market and related difficulties, Automobilia, for example, is anymore existing and so on...

Andrea: Of course I meant Giusti and not Giunti in realtion to Casa 'dell Auto/Testadoro. I am getting old, and my mind does not work as well as it once did.

I did not know that Nada sold his business, or that Automobilia has gone out of business completely. Does Nada still own Libreria 'dell Automobile, or did he sell that too? I have never been a big fan of Nada. Doing business with him was always difficult for me. I would go to Libreria 'dell Automobile, buy $2000 or more worth of books, than have to wait 6 months for them to arrive.

The situation is similar here in the US. Today, there are only 3 or 4 companies publishing car books. There are only 4 or 5 good stores for car books in the entire US, and all but one of them NOT import anything that is not in English (or English plus some other language)! Most of the books on obscure American cars are self-published today.
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  #277 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tubut View Post
Very interesting information. Could the SS you mention be the car Mcfee65 tried to identify in this thread?
Yes, it is the Molteni's car, fifth of the class at the end. The third car is the SZ of Alma Cacciandra Bordoni (wife of Franco Bordoni of Dagrada and Gordini fame). Ciao
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  #278 (permalink)  
Old 12-24-2007, 11:24 PM
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Originally Posted by dretceterini View Post
Andrea: Of course I meant Giusti and not Giunti in realtion to Casa 'dell Auto/Testadoro. I am getting old, and my mind does not work as well as it once did.

I did not know that Nada sold his business, or that Automobilia has gone out of business completely. Does Nada still own Libreria 'dell Automobile, or did he sell that too? I have never been a big fan of Nada. Doing business with him was always difficult for me. I would go to Libreria 'dell Automobile, buy $2000 or more worth of books, than have to wait 6 months for them to arrive.

The situation is similar here in the US. Today, there are only 3 or 4 companies publishing car books. There are only 4 or 5 good stores for car books in the entire US, and all but one of them NOT import anything that is not in English (or English plus some other language)! Most of the books on obscure American cars are self-published today.
Stu: the publishing house is now named Giunti-Giorgio Nada. The Libreria dell'Automobile still exists as a separate business owned by Nada. Ciao
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  #279 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2007, 06:40 AM
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SVZ #02308 (post #261)
Ruggiero's 1959 Targa car (race no. 32) is the 1960 Samona/Dracula car (no. 58) and not Natella's no. 32. The 1960 Natella car (registered SA 38082, dark paint) is due gobbe, just like the later Covino car (NA 173748, bright paint).

The 19581104 Coppa Sant' Ambroeus lists:
No. 170 Ada Pace 1oa; No. 166 Kim 2oa; No. 168 Aristide?/Aristodemo? Molteni 3oa; No. 175 Peroglio 4oa; No. 165 De Leonibus 5oa; No. 167 Rocco Lanzini DNF?
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  #280 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2007, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by martinue View Post
SVZ #02308 (post #261)
Ruggiero's 1959 Targa car (race no. 32) is the 1960 Samona/Dracula car (no. 58) and not Natella's no. 32. The 1960 Natella car (registered SA 38082, dark paint) is due gobbe, just like the later Covino car (NA 173748, bright paint).

The 19581104 Coppa Sant' Ambroeus lists:
No. 170 Ada Pace 1oa; No. 166 Kim 2oa; No. 168 Aristide?/Aristodemo? Molteni 3oa; No. 175 Peroglio 4oa; No. 165 De Leonibus 5oa; No. 167 Rocco Lanzini DNF?
It was a typical "cut and paste" error of mine. Sorry!
I would like to write "#04458 on 19600206 was sold to Clelia Rossi...". See page 144 of the cited book and the related Pra documents published.
The results published by "Auto italiana" end with De Leonibus.
I will check Csai monthly bulletin for complete results on the beginning of January.
Ciao
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  #281 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2008, 03:00 PM
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Smile Ref the SVZ file.---re Giulietta 750E lightweights.

I have been viewing this file with interest. I am impressed by the amount of work and information shared on this site, and while I cannot comment on some of the contents shown here because I do not know any different, I do have some information.
Regarding the SVZ's, I suspect there are quite a number of fakes, as there are with SV lightweights, SZ and TZ. For that matter many other makes that are desirable and worth large amounts of money.There are just not enough cars to go around! Cars which are found in recent times should be shown in their "found" state, which can indicate if they are genuine or even a 30 year old fake deteriorated!
My friend has just found an SZ in original but sad condition and I wonder what the outcome will be if there is a clone somewhere. It was like that with one I had even 20+years ago. The ref books are often wrong!
The real purpose of this note is to give some info re Giulietta 750 SV lightweights. I think lightweights finished around nos*4328* in the UK.
In the UK only about 17 cars most used in competition,were imported via the concession, a few came by private import in 1956 and later years when many cars were brought in by the motor trade, several racing drivers using this as a payday in the early'60's. Due to high import duty and taxes they were expensive.
You had to be wealthy to own an Alfa pre the mid 1960's, and most were used in competition. In Europe the most events were in Italy, France, most of the SVLts were thus sold in Italy, Switzerland,France, a few to other European countries. I always suspected the 600 figure as being high because it was difficult to find them even 37 years ago when I had my first. But, by then they were 15 years old and well worn, many crashed and just an old car, many must have been scrapped, so maybe the 600 is correct?I thought half that.
I owned two, the most original was ex Manchester Alfa dealer Johnny Wallwork who I think rallied it on the Tulip and maybe the Alpine Rallies.
Also rallied in the UK by him and Eric Wareham.
This was chassis 1493 *4637* and was a light weight even the headlight bowls(basins) were alloy, as were the bezels(rims). The bonnet, boot(trunk) lids, door skins were alloy. The seats were light frames, and the doors as in the typical photos. It had no glove box lid. My other car was *4239*
I think it was when John deBoer had the info from me that we figured all true lightweights have the *77xxx* body number.
I suspect some cars to Germany and maybe elsewhere(USA) had windup windows,
or/and normal doors. It depended on the market. Buyers expected higher spec. A high price and sliding windows? I think bad for sales. The main thing is true lightweights had many differences. Body and mechanical. Other Sprints had variations, eg:
Later on I think the USA had normal series 101 cars with open sills like early 750 Sprints, the engine bulkhead of an early car(not moulded) but were 101 chassis nos and engines. This we didn't have in UK, so there have always been variations.
In general this is what a SV lightweight would have.
Manufactured up to end of 1957 and *77xxx* body number, 750E chassis designation and numbering I believe below*5000*.
The following parts in alloy: door skins, bonnet(hood), boot(trunk)skins.
the headlight basins, rims, and number plate light, possibly the bumpers, I have seen these in alloy but not on cars I have seen!Grill eyebrows are alloy.
The interior trim is different, the seats are light weight although not buckets like an SZ, just normal bench looking but separate seats.Thin carpets!
The glove box without a lid. The door trims are quite different and the difference in weight to a normal door is surprising.
Screen is glass, all other windows are plexiglass.
Other differences are to do with the veloce spec,
Bendix fuel pump and brackets above the axle on RH side, a large fuel tank which necessitates a different handbrake mechanism.
There is no choke knob or cable.
There are 4 tapped holes on the bulkhead for the aircleaner mounting, the revcounter has 6700 red line.
Air ducting in the LH wheel arch to the aircleaner. so behind the alloy eyebrow the air intake metal is different.
There would be an asbestos shield over the mastercylinder, the engine mountings are different as are the dynamo pulley, starter motor, pistons, carbs are sandcast 40DCo3, big split sump, rubber buffer to stop the engine hitting the side rail, exhaust system, larger fuel filter in engine bay.
the throttle cross shaft was a different dimension.
axle ratio different, I forget but I think they were -- earth electrics.
Many differences to fake one, but cars loose these things over the years.
I'm sure there are things I have missed but there for what it is worth is what I remember.
Thanks for all the enjoyment of reading the contributions and viewing the photos.
Does anyone have information regarding Pierre Orsini in racing and rallying
during the 1960's.Mostly drove Renault, an Alfa History?
I see mention of Torino lady Ada Pace, has anyone ever written or interviewed her regarding her career. I see the ref to her car recently.
I believe she was founder of a ladies scooter club, and won the first raid, in 1947 Sestriere Rally for Vespa scooters. See Pinerolo Rally for 2004 when she guested at a club event. Is she still around? (Google- Pinerolo Vespa Club.)
This event was re enacted this year and will take place on June 29 2008.
Does any Italian speaker fancy finding out about her racing "story".
She raced on track,hills, in SV, SVZ, SZ, Abarth, Osca. Several times Italian lady champion, and often beat the men, but I've never been able to find out about this lady driver.
Maybe she could reveal history of some of those SVZ's.
Happy new Year to all! JC.
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  #282 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2008, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycee View Post
I have been viewing this file with interest. I am impressed by the amount of work and information shared on this site, and while I cannot comment on some of the contents shown here because I do not know any different, I do have some information.
Regarding the SVZ's, I suspect there are quite a number of fakes, as there are with SV lightweights, SZ and TZ. For that matter many other makes that are desirable and worth large amounts of money.There are just not enough cars to go around! Cars which are found in recent times should be shown in their "found" state, which can indicate if they are genuine or even a 30 year old fake deteriorated!
My friend has just found an SZ in original but sad condition and I wonder what the outcome will be if there is a clone somewhere. It was like that with one I had even 20+years ago. The ref books are often wrong!
The real purpose of this note is to give some info re Giulietta 750 SV lightweights. I think lightweights finished around nos*4328* in the UK.
In the UK only about 17 cars most used in competition,were imported via the concession, a few came by private import in 1956 and later years when many cars were brought in by the motor trade, several racing drivers using this as a payday in the early'60's. Due to high import duty and taxes they were expensive.
You had to be wealthy to own an Alfa pre the mid 1960's, and most were used in competition. In Europe the most events were in Italy, France, most of the SVLts were thus sold in Italy, Switzerland,France, a few to other European countries. I always suspected the 600 figure as being high because it was difficult to find them even 37 years ago when I had my first. But, by then they were 15 years old and well worn, many crashed and just an old car, many must have been scrapped, so maybe the 600 is correct?I thought half that.
I owned two, the most original was ex Manchester Alfa dealer Johnny Wallwork who I think rallied it on the Tulip and maybe the Alpine Rallies.
Also rallied in the UK by him and Eric Wareham.
This was chassis 1493 *4637* and was a light weight even the headlight bowls(basins) were alloy, as were the bezels(rims). The bonnet, boot(trunk) lids, door skins were alloy. The seats were light frames, and the doors as in the typical photos. It had no glove box lid. My other car was *4239*
I think it was when John deBoer had the info from me that we figured all true lightweights have the *77xxx* body number.
I suspect some cars to Germany and maybe elsewhere(USA) had windup windows,
or/and normal doors. It depended on the market. Buyers expected higher spec. A high price and sliding windows? I think bad for sales. The main thing is true lightweights had many differences. Body and mechanical. Other Sprints had variations, eg:
Later on I think the USA had normal series 101 cars with open sills like early 750 Sprints, the engine bulkhead of an early car(not moulded) but were 101 chassis nos and engines. This we didn't have in UK, so there have always been variations.
In general this is what a SV lightweight would have.
Manufactured up to end of 1957 and *77xxx* body number, 750E chassis designation and numbering I believe below*5000*.
The following parts in alloy: door skins, bonnet(hood), boot(trunk)skins.
the headlight basins, rims, and number plate light, possibly the bumpers, I have seen these in alloy but not on cars I have seen!Grill eyebrows are alloy.
The interior trim is different, the seats are light weight although not buckets like an SZ, just normal bench looking but separate seats.Thin carpets!
The glove box without a lid. The door trims are quite different and the difference in weight to a normal door is surprising.
Screen is glass, all other windows are plexiglass.
Other differences are to do with the veloce spec,
Bendix fuel pump and brackets above the axle on RH side, a large fuel tank which necessitates a different handbrake mechanism.
There is no choke knob or cable.
There are 4 tapped holes on the bulkhead for the aircleaner mounting, the revcounter has 6700 red line.
Air ducting in the LH wheel arch to the aircleaner. so behind the alloy eyebrow the air intake metal is different.
There would be an asbestos shield over the mastercylinder, the engine mountings are different as are the dynamo pulley, starter motor, pistons, carbs are sandcast 40DCo3, big split sump, rubber buffer to stop the engine hitting the side rail, exhaust system, larger fuel filter in engine bay.
the throttle cross shaft was a different dimension.
axle ratio different, I forget but I think they were -- earth electrics.
Many differences to fake one, but cars loose these things over the years.
I'm sure there are things I have missed but there for what it is worth is what I remember.
Thanks for all the enjoyment of reading the contributions and viewing the photos.
Does anyone have information regarding Pierre Orsini in racing and rallying
during the 1960's.Mostly drove Renault, an Alfa History?
I see mention of Torino lady Ada Pace, has anyone ever written or interviewed her regarding her career. I see the ref to her car recently.
I believe she was founder of a ladies scooter club, and won the first raid, in 1947 Sestriere Rally for Vespa scooters. See Pinerolo Rally for 2004 when she guested at a club event. Is she still around? (Google- Pinerolo Vespa Club.)
This event was re enacted this year and will take place on June 29 2008.
Does any Italian speaker fancy finding out about her racing "story".
She raced on track,hills, in SV, SVZ, SZ, Abarth, Osca. Several times Italian lady champion, and often beat the men, but I've never been able to find out about this lady driver.
Maybe she could reveal history of some of those SVZ's.
Happy new Year to all! JC.

I think Ada Pace passed away a few year ago, without her complete story ever being told...
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  #283 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2008, 02:12 AM
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SZ with drogo nose?

Although not an SVZ, this is also a special SZ. It has had a nose-job which is, according to some sources, designed by Piero Drogo. Can anyone confirm this? Is there also someone who has some more background information about this car (e.g. old pictures)?

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  #284 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2008, 11:10 PM
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Drogo? Maybe. Maybe not.

Hello Alfaman75,

I presume you are referring to chassis N. 00100 which has been in Canada for quite some time, having come from Ralph Stevens in the USA before then. The original recorded owner in 1961 was Guido Niccolai of Florence who painted the metallic gray car red almost straight away but there is not yet any indication that the nose was modified at that time. Tuning was reportedly done by Conrero and the output was claimed to be 142HP. Although the nose was reputedly modified by Drogo at some point for greater cooling, I have not seen any documentation to substantiate this. At this point it seems just as likely, despite the rumors that accompanied the car, that the nose was simply damaged at some point and then repaired in a distinctive fashion for some as yet un-named owner. It has been quite some time since I have had any contact with the owner so he may have learned something in this meantime? We can hope so.

Many years ago, the owner was considering restoring the nose to a more typical SZ configuration and I argued against the concept at that time, arguing that such a restoration could be done at any time in the future, and most likely with better information to tell us specifically how the car was orignally configured. Plus, as I also argued, there was the risk of losing an opportunity of learning some history of the car's true path if the nose was restored to "original". With the popularity of vintage racing and various car shows where the car might appear, there is always a chance that someone might actually recognize the car and its unique characteristics and be inspired to tell the owner about some history that might otherwise "walk on by" if the car was in a restored "orignal" configuration. The car itself, as modified, is perhaps its own best billboard in the quest to learn more. Unless, of course, someone happens to see your posting. I am not at home to look for it now, but I am almost certain to have a photo or two that will show the car in the 1980's when I first saw it. I will have a look when I return home in a few days.

If anyone else knows something more, I would certainly enjoy hearing from them.

All the best for 2008.

John de Boer
The Italian Car Registry
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  #285 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2008, 03:12 AM
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Curami, thank you for clearance, my information came from Auto Italiana, too. From your short video I suggest that the GT1.3 class had its own race, because I have seen only Alfas there. Is there a possibility to store this video on my computer? By now I can only watch it when I am online.

J.C., do you have further information of the cars you owned?
The 17 + some privately imported ones you mentioned were all lightweights? Why do you think that #04328 was the highest VIN in UK? You wrote that #04637 was an UK car, too. Is #04328 a SVA?
It seems that both of your cars are still around: #04239 was mentioned in Sportscar Graphic 11/1991 at Nigensya (J), a last record of it I found 20001025 on a japanese website as tornado blue, with engine #30449. SVA #04637 is said to have its production date 19570614, and was sold 19580311 to Thomson & Taylor, Byfleet, Surrey (GB). Last record is also 20001025, when it was with T. Sogabe (J), rosso 501, engine #32359. Which years you had them?

The highest VIN for a SVA I have by now is #04718, which had its production date 19570803 and was sold to Tony Mognaschi, later rebodied to SVZ and ended up as SVM, and it is still around. I saw no photos of SVCs (with standard windows) until the end of 1957. One car with race no. 108, UK registered (6 GPF), is shown in one of the Alfa books at a 1959 Cat's Eyes Rally, I think it was so called because of the night time. It has a SprintVeloce badge but standard doors without aluminium window frames

For Pierre Orsini I found the following Alfa entries in old magazines, but I have no VINs:
1961 (F), SZ sold to Pierre Orsini (F)
19610624-28 Critérium International des Alpes (F), SZ?/SV Pierre Orsini (F), DNF
196107 Auvergne 6h – Clermont-Ferrand (F), No. 54 SV Pierre Orsini (F), DNF (GT1.3, accident, photo)
19610914-22 Tour de France Automobile (F), SZ? Pierre Orsini (F), DNF (engine failure at Le Mans)
19620324-25 Critérium Jean Behra (F), SZ Pierre Orsini/Quilicci (F), 2oa
19620512-13 Rallye di Sardegna - Cagliari (I), SZ Pierre Orsini (F), 24oa, 4cl (GT1.3/GT1.6)
19620607-12 Coupe des Alpes (F), SZ Pierre Orsini (F), DNF (crash)
19620915-23 Tour de France Automobile (F), SZ Pierre Orsini (F), DNF
19630913-22 Tour de France (F), No. 130 SS Max Krauth/Jean Imperty/Pierre Orsini-DNS (F), 16oa, 10oa (GTscratch), 8oa (GTindex), 6cl (GT2.0, photo)

Ada Pace owned SVA #01849, bought new in 1956, rebodied to SVZ #01849 in early 1958, and SZ #00009, bought new in 1960. For these cars I have lots of entries. Of course she could have (co-)driven other cars, too, but on the photos there are always the same ones

Ada Pace.pdf

I am awaiting the new SVZ book, maybe we can make this thread really complete

Last edited by martinue; 01-11-2008 at 03:15 AM.
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