Low brake pedal

[Gordon Raymond]

They seem to change the numbers on this stuff just to confuse us years later!

[Gordon Raymond]

My friend George, KNOWING I'm often confused and incorrect, sent me this e-mail. He IS correct (naturally)!
I'll correct my earlier post.
Thanks George!


"You wrote: 7/8" # 640-769-78 I believe that should be #64067978
Additionally, I don't believe there was a 7/8" MC used by ALFA ... I believe you're referring to a 3/4" MC.
This is confirmed by your reference to Girling rebuild kit SP1975. This is definitely the kit for a 3/4" MC."

[VeloceOne]

One thing Gordon, us old guys know a lot more to be confused and incorrect about than these young whipper snappers...........
Regards Ian

[Gordon Raymond]

Thanks Ian! You are probably right, but maybe not ... now I'm confused!

[mkeith]

The young (relatively speaking) & ignorant among us truely appreciate all the input from the old & confused. Without it, we'd be perpetually incorrect.

I've heard/read the question asked, "who will be the next generation to take an interest in these cars, & keep them on the road?" I am among them. However, we do not have the benefit of being around when the cars were new, & nothing short of a time machine would allow us to be factory-trained to work on them. Perhaps if I hadn't bothered with something so frivolous as college, I could have been factory-trained in the 164 era.

There are so many little tidbits of knowledge lost with time (& the superceding of certain part numbers), & they seem to be replaced by misinformation, myths, & the acceptance of certain shortcomings. It is your willingness to share your knowledge & experience with us that will allow us to succeed on any level. Any time I hear the phrase, "they all do that," I'm skeptical. I wonder if they truely do "do that," or is it only improperly serviced cars with incorrect parts that "do that." Then again, with things such as Spica on the 105/115 cars, time has had quite the opposite effect.

Anyway, back to the car in question. I've sent the rears off the BM&P since the car seems to have picked up a slight drift to the right (with the steering remaining centered) under braking. I've experienced a rear brake pull before, & this is definitely the same sensation. It was short-sighted on my part to send the fronts only in the first place. I'm going to try bench bleeding the master while the rears are off. Although it doesn't feel like there's air in the sytem, I think that in order to learn & improve, I have to be willing to consider the fact that I don't know everything, & I have to be willing to try something different. If these steps do not improve matters, I will talk to White Post about making a 1 1/16" master out of the old 1" master that came out of the car.

[Gordon Raymond]

All of us agism experienced BB'ers appreciate your comments, and our reason for spending our time writing on the BB is to attempt to help pass on what knowledge we may have. For many of us this takes time from paying work, some of which we would not have, and some we do not want, IF only more customers read the BB!

Have you replaced your outer halfshaft bearings? I have run into a situation where the bearing could move in and out in the axle tube, enough to move the drum in relation to the shoes in the rear brakes. Jack the car up, and pull and push, in and out, on a rear wheel. There should be only the slightest of movement. If more, with a clear "clunk" when pulled or pushed, there IS a fix! I discovered, by accident, that the hardened circlip spring from a Alfa syncro, is the correct diameter and thickness to eliminate this play in the bearing pocket. Richard Jemison, Alfar7 has also discovered this true on some rear axle rebuilds he has completed. One syncro clip eliminates the problem of the rear brake pull. If one side is loose, the other will be loose as well, IF both bearings were replaced. This was first noticed with new rear brakes, when the wear pattern on the inside of the drums looked odd with rear brake pull you mention.
From my experience.

[AlfistiSA]

Ladies and Gents

Gordon your point about loose rear wheel bearings is excellent, it's a definite point to check & thanks for the hint on the syncro circlips, I'll file that clever trick away for the future !!

With regards to the original issue, we're sawing sawdust on this issue, a low brake pedal can be caused by something as simple as incorrect adjustment of the plunger push rod to the fork. Check the basics as well as the complicated items.

I've looked at both the Giulietta and Giulia Parts Catalogues & there are no less than 4 part numbers for master cylinders as shown below:

Brakes – Master Cylinder
•1356.66.726 – With switch. Stop indicator – Berlina, Sprint, Spider & ti
•1365.66.746 – With switch stop indicator – for Sprint Veloce, Spider Veloce, Sprint Speciale and Sprint Zagato
•1365.66.802 – Without switch stop indicator – for Sprint and Spider with switch on 4 way union
•101.06.45.020.00 – Without switch stop indicator – for Sprint Veloce, Spider Veloce, Sprint Speciale and Sprint Zagato with switch on 4 way union

The bottom two appear in the Giulia Parts Catalogue and an educated guess would have that the 1365.66.802 is for the 3 leading shoe brakes and 101.06.45.020.00 is for the disc/drum cars

Looking at the top two I'd propose that the first part number should read 1365 and not 1356 (possible typo in the manual ??). That said I'd guess that the first part might have been for the very early cars....lots of early stuff evolved rapidly & the last three numbers recorded the evolution.

The critical number is the second number, where the 2 leading shoe Giulietta Veloce's share the same MC as the 3 leading shoe Giulietta SS & SZ's, this being the case, then why should the 1" MC not work on the Giulia Sprints or Spiders with 3 leading shoe brakes......All my cars have the 1" MC, yet none of them have identical 'feeling' brakes, the most recent rebuilds feel 'wooden' in relation to the older rebuilds and the sole difference is in the type of linings that were used.

I've never heard of a 1 & 1/16th MC, but Alfa being Alfa nothing is impossible, however if the larger MC existed supposedly to fill the bigger volume of the 3 leading shoe cylinders, then logic would have it that this is incorrect and that the larger MC existed to lessen the pedal pressure required, so in the case of a using a 1" MC a slightly higher pressure may be required, but either way a spongy pedal can be solved by proper bleeding, while a pedal that takes too far down can be solved by adjusting the actuating rod

My suggestion is to take GTD's advice & pull the pedal box & bench bleed the MC, while adjusting the push rod a bit longer by one or two turns - a caution as it's very easy to adjust the push rod too far & have the piston & washers cover the feed hole from the reservoir.

The shoe adjustment sounds perfect, another caution is that a few short runs to bed the brakes in may allow another notch on the shoes which will bring the pedal up a bit - which may require the adjustment rod to be taken one turn down.

Ciao
Greig

Waaaay over the post limit...donning the flame proof suit